caz963: (white poinsettia)
caz963 ([personal profile] caz963) wrote2010-12-28 01:28 am
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More Who Pontification

Having rewatched A Christmas Carol earlier, I've had a few more thoughts and think I might have been able to put my finger a bit more firmly on why I'm rather ambivalent about it.



Which is - why the hell didn't Eleven do anything about that whole army of "surplus population" that Kazran had downstairs in the freezer? I can imagine Ten's righteous indignation and his insistence on finding a way to get them all out while simultaneously saving the space-liner or whatever it was. But Eleven hardly seemed to notice they were there. Which is odd, when he doesn't consider that he's ever met anyone who's unimportant. Or do they not count because he's not met them all?

I always try to be even-handed when it comes to what I write down about this - and any other - TV show. I like to look at all the angles and to try to work out why I think like I do, and when it comes to post-RTD Who, I'm trying really hard not to keep harping on the past, because after all, change and the need to move on are some of the concepts at the heart of the show. I try to concentrate on the elements I enjoy and to - well, not ignore the parts I don't, but shall we say, put them to one side and not let them spoil my enjoyment of the rest?

But the more I think about this version of A Christmas Carol, the harder I'm finding it not to think WTF? about many of its constituent parts. The plot didn't really make much sense and I found that I didn't really care all that much about any of the characters or what happened to them.

I mean, we're asked to believe that Karzan, admittedly a bit of a git, is inhumane enough to allow 4003 people to die just because he doesn't feel like helping them. Okay, so Scrooge didn't care about anyone other than himself, and we're able to infer that his actions have almost certainly led to deaths indirectly - but what Kazran is prepared to do is tantamount to single-handedly perpetrating a massacre.

I've already said how much Moff's insistence that time can be rewritten is starting to bug me, so I'll skip Eleven's manipulation of Karzan's life and memories and move on to this; isn't he bothered that letting Abigail out to play once a year is rather cruel? I know he's got bigger fish to fry (!) but that just feels so... wrong. Did he know she only had eight days to live which was why he didn't try to free her permanently?

And then - there's no such thing as isomorphic controls.

WHAT?! He knows there are! What about the Master's laser screwdriver in S3? And I'm sure there have been other examples through the years (even though I can't think of any right now!)

Also - the TARDIS can tow a planet to safety - why not a starship? *g*

I've posted at length about what I perceive to be the differences in style and content in Rusty's DW and Moff's DW - and this episode brought it all back to me. I said somewhere in a comment recently that it seems to me that one of the principal differences is that for the former, the plot is the most important thing, and Moff shapes and uses his characters to satisfy its demands; whereas RTD is about characters and their motivations and so his plots (such as they are!) grow from them and the way they think and act.

The thing about Dickens is that he was a great character writer. Love him or hate him (and I love him) it's impossible to deny that he created memorable characters, some of whom have become part of our national culture and consciousness, Ebenezer Scrooge being a prime example. I do have problems with many of his "heroines", I admit - most of whom tend to be whiter-than-white, long suffering, rather colourless characters, who are there to suffer, for the hero to protect and/or fall in love with and not much else. It seems that Moff did more than borrow the title of his first Christmas special from Dickens - he borrowed the blueprint for the heroine too, as Abigail Pettigrew was as Dickensian a female character as her name suggests. She was pretty and perfect and suffering and there for someone to fall in love with... oh, and it turns out she was dying, too.

But really - like Amy in S5 - Abigail was little more than a plot device. And rather an obvious one at that.

Even though Michael Gambon gave an incredibly nuanced performance as the older Kazran, I didn't really believe in his redemption. With Scrooge, we get to see the effects of the ghosts' revelations and I suppose in theory, the familiarity of the story should have helped us to believe in the effects that the Doctor's revelations [should have] had on Kazran. But... it didn't.*** And there was absolutely no reason given me to believe that he was going to change his ways permanently and go home and defrost everyone in the cellar and return them to their families.

So there it is. I just hope that S6 is going to deliver something that feels more "substantial" than this and much of S5. Of course, this was a Christmas episode, very much a standalone - but that can't really excuse the lack of decent characterisation and the increasing reliance on "smoke and mirrors" plotlines which at first glance make me think "ooh, that's clever!", but which, an hour or so later, have me scratching my head.



***I'm not going to start in on whether it's lazy or arrogant or whatever to expect your audience to draw on its knowledge of another story and its characters in order to make yours work. I know this happens all the time in fiction, as stories often follow similar paths and have certain resonances that we recognise; but I also believe that an author needs to do his/her job properly by creating characters and stories that can stand on their own as well as in relation to something else.

[identity profile] topaz-eyes.livejournal.com 2010-12-28 04:20 pm (UTC)(link)
The defense would like to draw attention to this passage from "Planet of the Ood":

DONNA

Servants? They're slaves.

KESS

Get up!

(the Ood stands)

March!

THE DOCTOR

Last time I met the Ood, I never thought, never asked...

DONNA

That's not like you.

THE DOCTOR

I was busy. So busy I couldn't save them. I had to let the Ood die. I reckon I owe them one.


The minute we have in-text clarification that Eleven freed everyone from the freezer and ensured it would never happen again, I will retract my statement.

[identity profile] goldy-dollar.livejournal.com 2010-12-28 04:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Great thoughts! I think it's interesting that, even though we come from different parts of the RTD-era fandom, we're both having similar reactions to the Moffat era. (Which for me is enjoyment without much emotional connection to the characters.)

But really - like Amy in S5 - Abigail was little more than a plot device. And rather an obvious one at that.

YES. I don't know/really think that Moffat is sexist or intentionally trying to be when writing Who, BUT there is an increasingly problematic trend that most of his female characters are written to serve the plot. Even River, who is arguably the most interesting of his female characters, serves as a way of moving the plot forward - her entire character is about the ~mystery~ rather than who she actually is (do we really have any inkling of what River wants or what she feels for the Doctor and why?). Abigail is all the things that irritated me about Amy and River's plotlines but MAGNIFIED TIMES 100. At no point did Abigail have much agency of her own or give voice to what she wanted - she was carefully constructed as a piece to move along Karzan's story and development. She's a complete blank slate.

I think Moffat is very clever, but he's almost too clever? There's a sense of him trying to impress upon us as an audience about how clever he is and I think the result is that the characters sometimes feel a little... empty? I had to forgive RTD a lot during his reign, but I could accept floating Jesus Ten if that meant we got great character scenes like Martha's "I'm getting out" speech.

[identity profile] caz963.livejournal.com 2010-12-28 06:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I admit, I'm not so bothered by the hackneyed storyline - as you say it IS Christmas, and also, Moff is on record as saying that he deliberately wanted to provide something different in tone to last year's specials - for obvious reasons. If you can do the hackney-ing well, and maybe provide a new insight or do something different with it, then all well and good. I don't think that happened here, though.

It was fun and Matt was really good. It was when I started actually thinking about it that the rot set in!

[identity profile] ooxc.livejournal.com 2010-12-28 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I was assuming analogy with Scrooge - that he has a complete change of character - even that Abigail might survive - "Tiny Tim did not die"

[identity profile] caz963.livejournal.com 2010-12-28 07:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah - I'm sorry, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek there;-)

But the fact is that we have to assume, isn't it? At least in the original, we're shown (and told) that Scrooge has changed his ways for the better, whereas here, I didn't feel it and I needed my prior knowledge of the original in order to draw that conclusion.

[identity profile] caz963.livejournal.com 2010-12-28 07:50 pm (UTC)(link)
enjoyment without much emotional connection to the characters.

It's the same for me.

Moff has promised that we'll get to know exactly who River is in S6 but in the meantime, yeah, she's as much a plot device as Amy is/was.

In many ways, Abigail is as much the classic Dickensian heroine as the classic Moffat one - there to serve the plot and look pretty.

I think Moffat is very clever, but he's almost too clever? There's a sense of him trying to impress upon us as an audience about how clever he is and I think the result is that the characters sometimes feel a little... empty?

*nods vigorously* - I felt the same after watching The Big Bang for the first time. Like - "ooh, that was clever! Wait - what actually happened?... That didn't make sense!"

I can forgive Rusty a helluva lot for the same reasons as you. He gave us characters we cared about and could empathise with - and most of all he gave us Ten. I doubt he'll be able to do anything EVER that will make me forget that.

[identity profile] bitwhizzle.livejournal.com 2010-12-28 11:46 pm (UTC)(link)
I feel the same way, and you put it so succinctly! :)

I'm tired of Moffat making up his own rules and breaking old rules, and making the Doctor suddenly act and react differently to situations where we would expect him to act a certain way. I'm all for character development, I would NOT want Twelve to be JUST LIKE Nine or Ten, of course not!, but we could see HOW Nine and Ten arrived at the emotions they developed and decisions that they made. I feel like that's lacking in Twelve, another reason why he hasn't really grown on me.

The same technical items you noted ("time can be rewritten", no isomorphic controls, etc) are things I noticed and irked me. As well...the fact that old Kazran TOUCHED young Kazran kinda drove me bonkers! After all we learned from Nine and Ten about not f'ing with the timeline, etc., Twelve just FLOUTS that!

And yes, I agree that so many characters are ending up as plot devices for an obvious story that Moffat just HAS to tell, but can't fit into the time he's given, so he has to take shortcuts. I'm rather disappointed with that, especially since Blink is one of my FAVOURITE episodes, and I was expecting stories of the same caliber.

Going back to your original peeve, I'm not sure what to think about the Doctor not appearing to care about all of the other people in stasis. Again, Twelve just seems to DO things with no explanation sometimes, and I don't like that.

And I still have one question: In the beginning, was Abigail really just "nobody of any importance" to Kazran when the Doctor rolled in? Going back to his young self, kiddo seemed infatuated with her anyway, but...I don't know why.

I'm so frustrated with the way the show is going, that I have no urge to re-watch to find my answers. It only frustrates me more. :P
Edited 2010-12-28 23:50 (UTC)

[identity profile] luinel-anduril.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 08:36 am (UTC)(link)
I really agree with everything you say here. The interesting thing is that in the past Moff always managed to make me like RTD's characters even more, but now he seems to be writing the Doctor completely out of character. Case in point: the Beast Below and Vampires in Venice. I cannot get over how he willfully caused the extinction of an entire species because they were changing women who wanted to have a better life. Of course he shouldn't have let them sink Venice, but he could have helped them rebuild.

[identity profile] luinel-anduril.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 08:41 am (UTC)(link)
I love how you point out that Elevensies is really Twelve. I wonder if Moff is writing him that way on purpose. Surely the Dream Lord is the Valeyard.

[identity profile] caz963.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 11:33 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, so I admit you had me scratching my head with the Twelve thing - I'm dim and am going to assume you mean Eleven ;-)

The Doctor can have a rather limited focus at times, it's true, and obviously what he wanted to do here was to save Amy and Rory and the ship. But... it just seemed odd that he didn't make any comment on that cellar full of frozen I.O.Us!

we could see HOW Nine and Ten arrived at the emotions they developed and decisions that they made

I was reading a post the other day which was saying much the same - the OP couldn't work out just how Eleven had evolved from Ten. At the moment, I tell myself that Eleven is very repressed and has "retreated" into himself because he got so badly burned as Ten... but that's just my way of rationalising it.

[identity profile] caz963.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 11:38 am (UTC)(link)
To write someone OOC you have to have given us an idea of exactly what is IN character for them... and part of my problem with Eleven is that I don't really know what that is, yet. I think he's repressed, he's cagey, he lies, he's got a quick temper and of course he's pretty bonkers. But like I've just said in a comment upthread, I can't quite see how he relates to Nine and Ten - Ten was very different to Nine in many ways, but we could at least see where he'd come from.

It's a while since I watched Vampires, but I thought that Eleven did offer Signora whotsit the chance to go somewhere else and she turned him down.

[identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 02:21 pm (UTC)(link)
By the Ood defence, we should assume the best for the next two years in case he goes back to put right what once went wrong.

I am still not over leaving the Ood in the first place :(

[identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 02:26 pm (UTC)(link)
there's "impressing" that seems meant to show off how clever and imaginative one is.

...cos Rusty never did that? (Not as much as Joss Whedeon, but still.)


Yet it's like he gets wrapped up in creating plot, in a way that upstages character and emotion -- which to me are what gives a story weight and purpose.
not drawn in emotionally the way I was by RTD. I got spoiled, I guess.


I don't watch for plot, but I like Moff's character stuff. It's not as... erm... surfacey as Rusty's all the time, but if anything I like that people don't cry all over the place at the slightest provocation these days. Also River has nice boobs.

[identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 02:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I think he wants to be cool because he knows he isn't. It's hilarious. I mean sad. Deeply sad.

[identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 02:28 pm (UTC)(link)
OOD LIBERATION NOW

[identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 02:32 pm (UTC)(link)
I think his thing with characters is quite impressive, but I'm too aware of him doing it now and it's kind of... annoying really that it fools us so well. D: D:

Amy's fine for me, I was surprised how fast I "got" her and could work out her voice and reactions for fic. She's weird and conflicted and I like that.

[identity profile] sue-denimme.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 04:05 pm (UTC)(link)
but if anything I like that people don't cry all over the place at the slightest provocation these days

If that really *had* been what RTD's era was like, I wouldn't have liked it either.

[identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 04:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Fair enough, I probably wouldn't like that other version of Mofftiem.

[identity profile] topaz-eyes.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 05:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Eleven has until the end of his run to fix this. It's only fair.

At least the show addressed what happened to the Ood in TSP and acknowledged it was wrong. It would have been terrible if it hadn't.

[identity profile] topaz-eyes.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 05:18 pm (UTC)(link)
in the new series, you have Ten not helping or really caring about the Ood's plight in tIP/tSP.

That's true, but he acknowledged that was wrong and he made up for it in PotO.

So much about the Doctor is living in the moment, and that's fair, we often don't see the big picture when there's an immediate problem. But was there even one line from Eleven to Sardick about the other people in the freezers at the end? I think that sort of acknowledgment would have gone a long way. I don't know.

[identity profile] caz963.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 09:45 pm (UTC)(link)
We'll have to agree to differ a bit, but I just have to say that I don't see it as "fooling us" - I think he (RTD) is doing what many other writers do. My other all-time favourite show is The West Wing - completely different, I know, but Sorkin is also a fantastic character writer and I'd argue that his methods are similar in some ways. Of course, he got more time in which to develop those characters, but I'd probably be hard-pressed to write an essay about the character of Josh Lyman based on the things I actually saw or heard on the show rather than about the things I've extrapolated as a result.

It's not that I don't think Moff can "do" characterisaion. Of course he can - Sherlock is a case in point. I just think he's gone a bit too far one way (plot) at the expense of characterisation. But it's bound to be subjective - and hey, it keeps us talking so it's not a bad thing!

[identity profile] caz963.livejournal.com 2010-12-29 09:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah - I can accept the Doctor's occasional myopia and the way he focuses on saving the ship here - he's always done that. I just found it odd that he never even mentioned the basement full of frozen I.O.Us or expressed his disapproval.
kilodalton: (Default)

[personal profile] kilodalton 2010-12-29 10:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Great points.

Did he know she only had eight days to live which was why he didn't try to free her permanently?

Doubt it. As per usual with Moffat's Doctor, I doubt he even noticed. He tends to write the Doctor to be pretty dim:

* He harps on the temporal instability of the fireplace for a solid minute at the beginning of GITF and then at the end ... is surprised by the temporal instability of the fireplace.
* It takes him almost 2 hours to realize that books are made of paper in SITL/FOTD
* It takes him a ghastly amount of time to realize that the one person that all of his sworn enemies have in common hatred is ... him? in TPO/TBB
* Everyone and his mother noticed the little countdown thingy on Abigail's fridge ... he doesn't even notice that it's counting down?


whereas RTD is about characters and their motivations and so his plots (such as they are!) grow from them and the way they think and act.

THIS. I know you're not a Rose/TenToo fan, but Davies wrote in his book that the beach scene took him a month to write and rewrite and rewrite, mainly because he couldn't see Rose acting the way he needed her to act. So he kept on trying and getting input and lines from everyone from Julie Gardner to David Tennant until they all felt that everything was in character.

.... would Moffat spend a month obsessing on a scene because the characters aren't acting in-character enough? (Lol).
kilodalton: (Default)

[personal profile] kilodalton 2010-12-29 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Amy isn't less well developed than the others. I'm beginning to realise that they're all poorly developed

LOLOL.

This comment is just ... win =) Love it. Going to borrow that, if you don't mind XD
kilodalton: (Default)

[personal profile] kilodalton 2010-12-29 10:48 pm (UTC)(link)
(Re Ood) *holds up hands*

Yes, you're right on that one.


Sorry for spamming your page with comments... even at the end of TSP though, he admits to the crew that he couldn't save the Ood and apologizes for it. So it wasn't like he wasn't thinking about it.

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