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Time, Space ... and Sexism
I feel like I’m taking my life in my hands by writing this, but it’s been on my mind since I began reading the various reactions to the Comic Relief DW special and I wanted to try to explain why I’m not as “up in arms” about it as some people are.
I am in NO WAY attempting to trivialize the concerns I’ve seen expressed or to say that those are not valid opinions. I hope that anyone reading this will know that’s something I would never do. I try to understand differing opinions, not slag them off.
Okay. So my first impressions, as I wrote here, were more to do with the fact that practically everything in Space and Time is stuff we’ve seen before – either in Moffat’s own Time Crash (where Ten saved the day because he remembered watching himself (as Ten) when he was Five) or in earlier DW stories (the TARDIS materializing within the TARDIS had been done in The Time Monster (Three) and Logopolis (Four)) – AND that it was a very tongue-in-cheek nod to all those moans about the fact that Amy spent most of the last series wearing skirts that were barely long enough to cover her – er – modesty ;-)
I admit I did wince a few times – the stuff about the driving test was in really bad taste, I thought - but mostly I was sniggering at the fact that Moff had let his inner 12 year-old run free and was trotting out some of the most clichéd schoolboy/seaside postcard humour I’ve seen on telly for a while.
I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing; it seems to me, on the whole, that us Brits tend to be a bit more laid back about political correctness and “isms” than some other cultures – and again - I’m not slagging anyone off, just wondering aloud! I mean – *hangs head in shame* - we gave the world Benny Hill after all. A fact for which I feel compelled to apologise profoundly. Oddly, there was an early Carry On film on on Saturday afternoon, in which the humour is very much in the same vein, and I found myself wondering how they could get away with showing it these days. Okay, so I know that it was made in the 1960s - we’ve moved on since then.
Anyway. what I’ve been wondering is whether I’m dim, insensitive or just a bad feminist, because I’m prepared to dismiss it as – admittedly poor - “schoolboy humour” rather than deliberate sexism.
When I first saw the various debates here on LJ which talked about how Moffat’s views on women – ones that he’s not been shy of expressing in a number of interviews – are informing his writing, I was surprised because, as I said, I don’t tend to see things like this unless it’s either a) incredibly, glaringly obvious or b) pointed out to me afterwards.
(As another example. At the risk of opening up another can of worms about another “ism” – I was surprised to discover that the fact that Martha’s family were dressed in servants’ uniform at the end of S3 was widely thought to be racist.
I never saw that at all. My brain doesn’t go – “oh, they’re black so they have to wear servants’ uniforms”. It goes – “oh, they’re servants so they have to wear servants’ uniforms.”
They’d have been wearing them had they been White, Indian, Chinese, Hispanic or whatever, because the point was that the Jones family had been enslaved by the Master. But that’s by the by.)
It was while reading one of those discussions about Moffat that I read an old interview in which he made some spectacularly sexist comments, and I admit I was shocked. Not just at the views expressed, but that fact that he actually SAID THEM OUT LOUD!
For anyone who doesn’t know what I’m talking about, the comments are these ones (thanks to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kilodalton for reminding me of them).
And this –
source.
Sounds like a manifesto for Mysogynists-R-Us. And my response to that last quote is – if you’re going to spout crap like that, then I’m not at all surprised.
I don’t think I’m stupid or insensitive – so perhaps it’s to do with the fact that I grew up in the 70s when humour of the type we’re talking about was rife; and while I didn’t particularly like it, I’m used to it? I know that’s not an argument that paints me in a particularly flattering light either, but I can’t think of another reason as to why I’m not more worked up about this.
So yes, I can definitely see what people are talking about when they talk about Moffat being sexist, and I admit his attitude makes me uncomfortable. I mean, sure he’s created a sexy, feisty, independent, clever, kick-arse female character in River Song, but what is she if not the manifestation of what I’ve referred to before as Moffat’s ultimate fantasy – a feisty, sexy, clever woman who is most definitely NOT needy or hunting for a husband? She doesn’t want to tie the hero down because she’s not interested in domesticity herself.
As anyone who’s read my other witterings about DW knows, I’m not Moffat’s greatest fan. I admire his skill and I like his sense of humour (mostly), but I can’t quite bring myself to believe that he’s so bloody stupid and/or insensitive as to allow his personal, unflattering views on women to be seeping into his work. And this was only a six-minute charity thing, after all, probably a bit hastily thrown together.
Perhaps the problem is that I’m too naïve.
I can certainly see why there are people out there who are incensed by what was supposed to be a bit of fun for a charity event. But I think I’m more disappointed by the fact that it wasn’t all that – you know, funny.
Out of interest – what are the more pro-Moffat-DW-than-I people saying about it?
This post is public because I'm interested in what others beyond my f-list have to say. But I know this is a contentious issue, and if I feel I have to, I'll lock it.
I am in NO WAY attempting to trivialize the concerns I’ve seen expressed or to say that those are not valid opinions. I hope that anyone reading this will know that’s something I would never do. I try to understand differing opinions, not slag them off.
Okay. So my first impressions, as I wrote here, were more to do with the fact that practically everything in Space and Time is stuff we’ve seen before – either in Moffat’s own Time Crash (where Ten saved the day because he remembered watching himself (as Ten) when he was Five) or in earlier DW stories (the TARDIS materializing within the TARDIS had been done in The Time Monster (Three) and Logopolis (Four)) – AND that it was a very tongue-in-cheek nod to all those moans about the fact that Amy spent most of the last series wearing skirts that were barely long enough to cover her – er – modesty ;-)
I admit I did wince a few times – the stuff about the driving test was in really bad taste, I thought - but mostly I was sniggering at the fact that Moff had let his inner 12 year-old run free and was trotting out some of the most clichéd schoolboy/seaside postcard humour I’ve seen on telly for a while.
I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing; it seems to me, on the whole, that us Brits tend to be a bit more laid back about political correctness and “isms” than some other cultures – and again - I’m not slagging anyone off, just wondering aloud! I mean – *hangs head in shame* - we gave the world Benny Hill after all. A fact for which I feel compelled to apologise profoundly. Oddly, there was an early Carry On film on on Saturday afternoon, in which the humour is very much in the same vein, and I found myself wondering how they could get away with showing it these days. Okay, so I know that it was made in the 1960s - we’ve moved on since then.
Anyway. what I’ve been wondering is whether I’m dim, insensitive or just a bad feminist, because I’m prepared to dismiss it as – admittedly poor - “schoolboy humour” rather than deliberate sexism.
When I first saw the various debates here on LJ which talked about how Moffat’s views on women – ones that he’s not been shy of expressing in a number of interviews – are informing his writing, I was surprised because, as I said, I don’t tend to see things like this unless it’s either a) incredibly, glaringly obvious or b) pointed out to me afterwards.
(As another example. At the risk of opening up another can of worms about another “ism” – I was surprised to discover that the fact that Martha’s family were dressed in servants’ uniform at the end of S3 was widely thought to be racist.
I never saw that at all. My brain doesn’t go – “oh, they’re black so they have to wear servants’ uniforms”. It goes – “oh, they’re servants so they have to wear servants’ uniforms.”
They’d have been wearing them had they been White, Indian, Chinese, Hispanic or whatever, because the point was that the Jones family had been enslaved by the Master. But that’s by the by.)
It was while reading one of those discussions about Moffat that I read an old interview in which he made some spectacularly sexist comments, and I admit I was shocked. Not just at the views expressed, but that fact that he actually SAID THEM OUT LOUD!
For anyone who doesn’t know what I’m talking about, the comments are these ones (thanks to
kilodalton for reminding me of them).There’s this issue you’re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That’s the truth. We don’t, as little boys, play at being married – we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands.
And this –
Well, the world is vastly counted in favour of men at every level - except if you live in a civilised country and you’re sort of educated and middle-class, because then you’re almost certainly junior in your relationship and in a state of permanent, crippled apology. Your preferences are routinely mocked. There’s a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male.
source.
Sounds like a manifesto for Mysogynists-R-Us. And my response to that last quote is – if you’re going to spout crap like that, then I’m not at all surprised.
I don’t think I’m stupid or insensitive – so perhaps it’s to do with the fact that I grew up in the 70s when humour of the type we’re talking about was rife; and while I didn’t particularly like it, I’m used to it? I know that’s not an argument that paints me in a particularly flattering light either, but I can’t think of another reason as to why I’m not more worked up about this.
So yes, I can definitely see what people are talking about when they talk about Moffat being sexist, and I admit his attitude makes me uncomfortable. I mean, sure he’s created a sexy, feisty, independent, clever, kick-arse female character in River Song, but what is she if not the manifestation of what I’ve referred to before as Moffat’s ultimate fantasy – a feisty, sexy, clever woman who is most definitely NOT needy or hunting for a husband? She doesn’t want to tie the hero down because she’s not interested in domesticity herself.
As anyone who’s read my other witterings about DW knows, I’m not Moffat’s greatest fan. I admire his skill and I like his sense of humour (mostly), but I can’t quite bring myself to believe that he’s so bloody stupid and/or insensitive as to allow his personal, unflattering views on women to be seeping into his work. And this was only a six-minute charity thing, after all, probably a bit hastily thrown together.
Perhaps the problem is that I’m too naïve.
I can certainly see why there are people out there who are incensed by what was supposed to be a bit of fun for a charity event. But I think I’m more disappointed by the fact that it wasn’t all that – you know, funny.
Out of interest – what are the more pro-Moffat-DW-than-I people saying about it?
This post is public because I'm interested in what others beyond my f-list have to say. But I know this is a contentious issue, and if I feel I have to, I'll lock it.
no subject
When I first saw the various debates here on LJ which talked about how Moffat’s views on women – ones that he’s not been shy of expressing in a number of interviews
...since I don't think he has done so in a "number of interviews" - every time this discussion comes up, bloggers always link to that same article that you have extracted here.
Now, I can see where people have issues with what he says, HOWEVER, the first quote is in direct reaction to a question about Coupling (which doesn't excuse it, so much as explain those character choices) and I do wonder whether the second quote is about the men in that same series.
I know this comment of mine might come off as defensive (for Moffat the man and Moffat the writer), but I really haven't read these kind of comments in a "number of interviews". If Moffat was making a habit of it, I'd be more willing to agree - but as everyone points to one interview that is most likely about one show he wrote, I have a hard time with people using it as justification to write off everything he does as the work of a misogynist.
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I just wish the whole thing had been funnier.
no subject
I associate sexism with women being paid less, denied promotion, being touched up, having to "take a joke" in a macho culture, having to fight twice as hard for everything. I'm used to it in the defence sector although to be fair to them, if you can do the job and be part of the culture, you're more respected than in many other walks of life. It's not sexist - it's just brazen, bolshy, and in your face tough for everyone in different ways. But when the really nasty stuff happens, that's when we get pissed and want to chop bollocks off. If one writer, who as good as he is may still disappear into obscurity next year, makes a few crap jokes about the length of a skirt, we're only likely to dismiss it as toss not worthy of our time and move onto beating the shit out of the real bastards. I don't see this as a creep effect because I routinely call unfunny crap like this out to people's faces. And I'm willing to be you do, too.
I've got honest to God battles to fight. I've got no time for the cosmetic ones. (And all that.)
no subject
I associate sexism with women being paid less, denied promotion, being touched up, having to "take a joke" in a macho culture, having to fight twice as hard for everything. (Underlining mine)
Then you say:
If one writer, who as good as he is may still disappear into obscurity next year, makes a few crap jokes about the length of a skirt, we're only likely to dismiss it as toss not worthy of our time and move onto beating the shit out of the real bastards. (Underlining mine)
I have to ask, when the line of thinking in the second quote underlies the situations mentioned in the first, how do you justify that line of thinking? Honestly, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just saying, as I see it, changing a culture means you have to change its thinking. And that can't change until it's pointed out.
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And in any case, I'm sort of half with you on it. I wrote this post because I'd seen a lot of people getting really upset by this little "special" and I was trying to explain why i'm not as worked up about it, and why I don't tend to see "isms" around every corner.
I do have problems with the way that Amy is... I hesitate to say characterised becuase, well, that's my problem - I don't think she is. But they're not due to any sexism, perceived or otherwise, or to the fact that her skirts are so short!
I rather liked the fact that he was thumbing his nose at the "Amy's skirts are too short" brigade; if nothing else, it means he's listening enough to take a swipe at it!