Maybe baby..?

[caz963]

I've tried to hide spoilers in this. I'm not saying anything that's not in the public domain, but just in case...

Okay. As a way of trying to stop myself from thinking too hard about what might or might not happen in next week's DW, and about what might be this (highlight to read) thing that will make us look at the series' mythology differently (according to the current issue of DWM) I've decided to post about something that's been bothering me increasingly over the past few weeks.



If you love Amy, you might want to stop reading this right now. Please bear in mind that I'm expressing AN OPINION - which doesn't happen to be favourable towards her; but I'm always happy to hear opinions that differ from mine when expressed politely :-)



I know it's a contentious issue, and I'm sure there's an explanation - but for some reason, I'm really unhappy about the pregnancy plotline.

I've been trying to work out just why it bothers me so much, and I really can't quite put my finger on it, so if any of you have any ideas/comments/similar concerns, I'd be really glad to hear them as it might help me to reach a conclusion that makes sense rather than just being a "because I don't like it" answer.

What I've come up so far is this.

1. I don't think pregnancy has ever been touched on in DW before in this way (i.e, one of the main characters being/not being preggers). Not that "it's never been done" is a reason NOT to do something, but I'm just not comfortable with pregnancy being made, well - A Plot Point. And then, I'm not comfortable with it being made into A Plot Point in a show of this nature. I hesitate to get into the "it's a kid's snow / it's a family show" argument, but it's undeniable that a large proportion of the audience is made up of younger viewers and IMO, it's just not the sort of storyline in which kids are likely to be all that interested.

2. Chatting to a friend earlier, she said "I don't think Amy even loves Rory, so why should I care if she's pregnant?"
For me, that's part of it, but it's also yet another instance of Amy being used as a means to further the plot rather than being made into a fully rounded character. I know we're only three episodes into s6, but I'd hoped I'd be able to warm to her more this series as she's now "back on track" - she's not the girl whose life doesn't make sense any more; she has a family, she has Rory (although God knows why - she treats him like shite) and I thought that now that mystery has been cleared up, she'd be easier to like.

Sadly, that hasn't happened yet. At best, she's not annoying me as much so far, but I suspect that's just becasue having a Team of Three instead of Two means she gets a bit less screen time

3. This show isn't called Amy Pond. Once again, we're being hammered over the head with how SPESHUL Amy is while still being given no real reason as to why we should think so. Or rather, why we should think she's MOAR speshul than any of the Doctor's other companions. Moffat has already said (highlight)that something will happen which will change Amy and the Doctor's relationship forever ... which would mean a lot more if I actually gave a damn about her. As with the last series, I think he's so preoccupied with making her fit with the demands of the plot that he's forgotten to give her a character. And he's doing the same thing again with the "is she or isn't she?" thing - placing her somehow at the centre of things for no (as yet) discernible reason. Donna Noble may have been referred to as the most important woman in the history of creation, but that came pretty late on in the series and even Donna herself thought it was bollocks. And while one could argue that with both Amy and Donna, their "special-ness" was becuase they happened to be in the right place at the right time, I think it's also true to say that Donna showed her awesome pretty early on, knowing when to push and when to let something go; "don't you hurt him"; "you can stop now" - and so on.

Whereas with Amy - EVERYTHING about her (supposed) "special-ness" is to do with her being in the right place at the right time. She was "odd" and knew so many things about the Doctor that she really shouldn't have - her life didn't make sense because the universe had been bleeding into her head through the cracks. And now... it seems there's another Plot revolving around where she is and the company she keeps.

I know there are people out there who love her and think she's awesome, but I still can't see it. I keep hoping...

4. I'm not mushy when it comes to babies or kids, but I do think that being pregnant is an incredible thing and as I've said above, I'm just not comfortable with it being made into A Plot Device. I know that some shows do it all the time - but this isn't Eastenders. I've seen all the theories about alternate time lines etc. and they're interesting and may turn out to be correct but at the end of the day, it all boils down to one thing.

If Amy is pregnant (and either knows on some level that she is, or suspects she is) then she's being a tad irresponsible running around the universe, fighting pirates and facing Certain Death on a regular basis.

And okay, so she might NOT be pregnant. But the point is that she MIGHT be - and as anyone who has been trying to conceive will tell you, even at the point where you don't know either way, you're beginning to exercise caution and do everything you can to minimise risks to that (possible) life.

And also - what the hell is the Doctor doing? This is a man who values life in all its forms to the extent that he would - and has, frequently - put himself in harm's way to protect even ONE life. Whatever Amy knows or suspects or doesn't know - HE KNOWS. He knows she might be expecting a child and yet makes no attempt to ... maybe not dissuade her or persuade her to go home - at the very least, suggest she takes a pregnancy test!

So there you have it. Anyone else out there got any similar concerns?

Comments

[kilodalton]

As with the last series, I think he's so preoccupied with making her fit with the demands of the plot that he's forgotten to give her a character.

This is just what Moffat DOES, and I've learned to ignore it.

* Take TEC/TDD, where Rose starts whining about "gimme some Spock" and being flirty with Nine, neither of which she ever does again
* Take GITF, where everyone acts like a pod person ... Ten and Rose forget they're into each other (and he goes goo-goo for someone who is never mentioned ever again), Rose forgets she is jealous as a major character trait in the previous ep (and will be jealous in the next ep, and in TSE), Rose and Mickey forget that he's not really wanted aboard (which again, is kinda the whole point behind him staying behind in a parallel world in the very next 2-parter!!!!)
* Take Blink, where the normally reticent Martha starts whining/nagging at Ten both times she is onscreen, neither of which she ever does again

Etc, etc, etc

Moffat comes up with a plot, and crams the characters into it, characterization and emotional arcs be damned. It's a big reason I can't stand him.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Interestingly I was reading the article on GitF in this month's DWM just last night and in it, the writer points out the inconsistencies of characterisation you mention. it seems that the episode got moved around a lot - it was ep 10 (or something) then 3, then back to the second half, then back to 4 etc.... and (so the article says) when commissioned to write it SM had no idea of the fact that Rose was miffed at the end of the previous ep about Mickey coming on board.
I'm not making excuses for poor characterisation - just thought it was interesting you'd mentioned it when I'd read the article just last night.

I've enjoyed his stories for DW and I'm still (mostly) enjoying them when I can sweep stuff like this under the carpet. But I don't go into orgasms of delight over them like many in fandom seem to do!

Not only does Plot > Characterisation in Moffat's Who, but Cleverness > Emotion as well, it seems, I still stand by what I said here (http://caz963.livejournal.com/367922.html) - that Moffat's about the Head while Rusty was about the Heart,

[kilodalton]

Oooh which DWM is that? I don't subscribe and I really, really should. I heard that Moffat said that originally he had thought up the episode for Nine, but then found out that Eccleston was leaving, and was like "eh, what the heck, it'd work for Ten too."

Episode 10 of s2?!? Really? That would have been terrible. RTD said in the commentary for ... um ... some second-half-of-s2 episode, I want to say TIL but don't hold me to that .. that his idea was to put up "roadblocks" to Ten and Rose's relationship (like Sarah-Jane and Reinette) until the second half of the season, basically because it was an intense relationship and pretty much would have had nowhere to go except "places inappropriate for a family show" or something like that XD XD

[caz963.livejournal.com]

It's in the current DWM (http://www.paninicomics.co.uk/web/guest/news?id=54223). I admit, I haven't bought it regularly for years, but I picked one up in Tesco's recently and really liked the features and reviews, so I look out for it now.

Ep 10 might have been stretching it a bit, come to think of it! But I'm sure it said it might have been later than where it finally ended up.

[kilodalton]

How often do they come out with DWMs if you don't mind my asking? Is it like a monthly or annual thing?

[caz963.livejournal.com]

It's monthly, usually around the beginning of the month. The current issue came out last Thurs.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I liked pod!Rose :( But yeah she was OOC. And then there's jealous!Donna in the Library eps where Moffat seems to have assumed she'd fancy the Doctor and nobody told him otherwise. Where were the script-editors and Rusty himself to fix these things? I don't have a problem with the Doctor chasing after Reinette, though, he's never seemed all that monogamous before or since. And it does fit the love-and-loss theme, so there's that.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

I liked pod!Rose much better than real!Rose *g*

But as we know, Rusty never touched Moff's scripts. I don't know if this was because he (RTD) was so much of a Moff fanboy that he thought that his writings should remain unsullied until put into production, or it if was because there was something in Moff's contract that precluded any polishing or rewriting,

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Pod!Rose was intelligent and mature and forgiving and not prone to jealous rages. She even cried less! But sadly that wasn't what Rose was usually like, so it's OOC for her :( I kind of got the sense that Moffat didn't care that much about RTD's companions, such that he didn't always bother with stuff like Martha's love for the Doctor or Donna's supposedly not fancying Ten. I should have a think and work out who else was like that. I mean Chibnall I think it's just lack of skill rather than lack of interest, y'know?

Did he really never touch them? I thought that was just S1, when he was saying that Moff must be good because he couldn't find anything to change in his episodes? I don't think Rusty (or anyone) would keep getting a writer back who they weren't allowed to edit.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure it was Moff scripts in general. I'm sure I've come across it in interviews or in The Writer's Tale - probably both.

that he didn't always bother with stuff like .... Donna's supposedly not fancying Ten.

Heh. She might not have fancied him, but she probably wouldn't have kicked him out of bed :-)

Unless it was to make breakfast.

[kilodalton]

I believe that RTD said that the (unspoken?) policy was to give free reign to writers who had been head writers of their own shows before.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Anyone know if Paul Cornell had done his own series by then? I feel like he had, but I'm not an expert on such things. Gatiss?

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

After I saw that cafe scene from EoT I have become convinced that Ten was in love with Donna. And during S4 I did wonder occasionally if they were shagging between episodes.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

*points to icon*

Ten and Donna could shag without it getting angsty because they didnt' fancy each other and so they could still be friends afterwards :-)

[kilodalton]

I kind of got the sense that Moffat didn't care that much about RTD's companions, such that he didn't always bother with stuff like Martha's love for the Doctor

THIS!!!! Lol in Blink she is just plain rude to him - interrupting, making comments over his shouldler about having to support him, etc. Pod!Martha, lol.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I wonder if that was a not-very-successful attempt to make her reassert herself? But anyway it's like with "Look what the cat dragged in, the Oncoming Storm!" -- Moff seems to like companions being a bit rude to the Doctor. Dunno why that is, but I admit it makes me lols.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Thing is - when Donna was giving Ten a hard time, it worked, I suppose because it wasn't OOC.

[kilodalton]

I liked pod!Rose :( But yeah she was OOC.

Yeah, she wasn't true to her character. This is the same girl that not 5 episodes before broke open the TARDIS to go save Nine ... and he's trying convince us she'd stand around moping for 5.5 hours? Lol no. I read this great fic once where (since it's the 51st century), they manage to eventually get ahold of Jack Harkness via his vortex manipulator to come save the day -- now THAT I could see!! XD

And then there's jealous!Donna in the Library eps where Moffat seems to have assumed she'd fancy the Doctor and nobody told him otherwise

Forgot about that! But yup.

I don't have a problem with the Doctor chasing after Reinette, though, he's never seemed all that monogamous before or since.

I questioned that until I heard the Moffat/Noel Clarke MP3 interview on the BBC website (at least it was there before the s5 redesign ... but it's still on megaupload at least. But I digress). Noel specifically asks Moffat about that, and Moffat said that no, he doesn't think there was any "DANCING" going on - that when he wrote the line, he had Reinette using that word because after being in his head, she knew it was a double entendre and was flirting with him, but that she "wouldn't be that quick". Which I was glad to hear him say, tbh, because that would have been mega-OOC in an ep that was already swimming in it.

What irks me more than anything about the ep though is you're right that it's portrayed as love-and-loss ... but then it never gets even a passing mention ever again. And they're all laughing and joking at the beginning of the next ep like nothing had ever happened. Heck, even poor Joan got a mention in EOT - even Jabe and poor ill-fated Lynda-with-a-Y and Astrid did in JE!! But Reinette? Nope. (Maybe that was intentional though - I know it's a pretty polarizing ep, so maybe Rusty was like "uh oh, let's just forget about this one, shall we?" lol).

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

This is the same girl that not 5 episodes before broke open the TARDIS to go save Nine ... and he's trying convince us she'd stand around moping for 5.5 hours?

IDK what she could really have done. I do think she's the one that thought of using the horse to get through the mirror though. I don't know why, just that Mickey didn't seem that clever in it and the Doctor was busy freaking out.

Which I was glad to hear him say, tbh, because that would have been mega-OOC in an ep that was already swimming in it.

Eh, I think they did it. *shrugs*


What irks me more than anything about the ep though is you're right that it's portrayed as love-and-loss ... but then it never gets even a passing mention ever again.

Which was IC at the time before S3 took the Doctor out of character to reassure the viewer. Sarah didn't get another mention either, did she? The Doctor just swallows his losses and tries not to think about them too much, and really there wasn't anyone for him to talk about it to, cos I don't think it'd be fair to make Rose have to listen to his pain on that one.


And they're all laughing and joking at the beginning of the next ep like nothing had ever happened.

Idiot's Lantern? Mickey had only just left and neither of them seems to care. It's not good in either case, but neither is unique.

[kilodalton]

I do think she's the one that thought of using the horse to get through the mirror though.

I think they should have just crashed the TARDIS through the window (not make it dematerialize - but literally use it as a battering ram). Then all drama could be avoided. Which brings up another thing ... at the beginning of the ep, Ten lectures Rose and Mickey about the temporal instability of the fireplace, i.e. that seconds in France are years on the spaceship. Then, not hours later, he is shocked to discover that Reinette is dead bc ... seconds in France are years on the spaceship. That's lame.

Eh, I think they did it. *shrugs*

I never thought they did, which is why I'm glad Moffat cleared the air on that. Like .. the line is "but first I shall make him [the King] jealous." How to do that if they're off in a private room? Moff went on in the interview to say that he thinks they just went to the party and had the time of their lives drinking, flirting, dancing (upright lol), which was already my head canon .. that's probably the only time Moffat and I will ever share an opinion about anything. (It feels ... weird).

I don't think it'd be fair to make Rose have to listen to his pain on that one.
Idk how much "pain" there was, kwim? Although it was intense, he only knew her for a few hours, tops. It's like ... with Rose we see he moped f o r e v e r. With Martha, it's in the dialogue that felt immensely guilty after the fact for being so mean to her. With Joan, he felt badly enough that he went back to ask Verity if she had been happy. But here? He clearly had a bit of an infatuation with Reinette - I don't think anyone could argue that. But was he moping for 30 minutes? A day? Does he build an interdimensional flying toaster an hour later and never give it a second thought? XD

And they're all laughing and joking at the beginning of the next ep like nothing had ever happened.

I mean the very next one (Rise of the Cybermen), where the first time you see them they're cuddled up on the jumpseat and Ten has his arm around her, and they're laughing hysterically.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Seconds in France are years on the spaceship. Then, not hours later, he is shocked to discover that Reinette is dead bc ... seconds in France are years on the spaceship. That's lame.

I thought it was that the fireplace kept skipping each time it reconnected and he thought he'd fixed it at the end? I may have, erm, timed it all once to see if time really did move faster there.


Although it was intense, he only knew her for a few hours, tops.

Which was all ~symbolicalness~ of how mayfly we humans are to him, no? I remember on the commentary at the time Moff seemed to think the Doctor wasn't going to be allowed to cry or mope over anyone so he had to find other ways of showing his pain in teh episode.


I mean the very next one (Rise of the Cybermen), where the first time you see them they're cuddled up on the jumpseat and Ten has his arm around her, and they're laughing hysterically.

I try to forget that scene cos they were bitches in it and I wanted to smack them upside the head :( And it is the very-next-one where they've forgotten that Mickey ever happened. Fine for the Doctor, he's got previous characterisation of never mentioning people, but Rose seemed weird like someone had stolen her memory or something.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

I really dislike that scene, too - for the same reasons. That said though, it is kinda consistent with the way Ten and Rose were so... what's the word?... non-inclusive?

But that following on directly from Rose's DNW Mickey at the end of SR would have made much more sense,

[kilodalton]

I thought it was that the fireplace kept skipping each time it reconnected and he thought he'd fixed it at the end?

Idk, he mentions a loose connection at both the beginning and the end of the ep though. Edit -- I was wrong about something in an earlier post (I type too fast!!) After he left Rose and Mickey and Reinette is a few months older he marvels that seconds = months, but he doesn't say it TO them.

Which was all ~symbolicalness~ of how mayfly we humans are to him, no?

Which makes **total** sense that it came right after SE, since that kind of highlight's Ten's phobia about the whole wither-and-die thing. But - and yes, I'm overthinking this, but w/e - the wither-and-die thing HAD to have been at the front of his mind in an in-character Ten. He had to know he couldn't keep Reinette long as a companion - he knew everything else about her biography, surely he knew she was supposed die soon. She was too important to history, which was the point behind the ship being named after her at all. Maybe it was intended to be a one-or-two trip deal? He didn't invite her until she indicated she didn't want him to leave, so maybe he was thinking that all along and was just bummed he didn't have a chance for even that? Idk.

Then again, Tennant says in the ROTC commentary that had she come onboard as a companion, that his personal canon is that she would have been turned into a Cyberman in Pete's World. So either way, she was hosed. XD

but Rose seemed weird like someone had stolen her memory or something

Clearly they were starting on the series arc with the Silents a few episodes early ... she just didn't remember!!! >.^

[caz963.livejournal.com]

If what DWM says about the episode being shifted around through the season is true, that would - to an extent- account for those inconsistencies, in that if it hadn't followed School Reunion that whole "DNW Mickey" => "best mate Mickey" on Rose's part wouldn't have been such a glaringly bad juxtaposition, In fact, the DNW followed by that whole "you had to be there" conversation at the start of RoC would have made much more sense.

The shoving from pillar to post doesn't account for the other inconsistencies within the episode, however.

I suppose one could argue that Lynda, Astrid, the Hostess et al died to protect/save the Doctor and Reinette didn't...

[kilodalton]

I suppose one could argue that Lynda, Astrid, the Hostess et al died to protect/save the Doctor and Reinette didn't...

Oh totally true! But Verity still gets a visit in EOT, just to make sure that Joan was happy. Which is sweet (nice to know he felt guilty for screwing up her life, at least!)