The big post of MEH.

[caz963]

I've been off work for the last couple of days with this bloody cold. By yesterday's standards, today has been rather unproductive - yesterday I produced 2 picspams, a ficlet and wrote up a rather long DW episode recap!

Today? Meh.

It would help if I could stop writing new fics when I've got old ones to finish. Today's effort was probably one of the most angsty, UST-y things I've ever written. It's not finished, and I'm not sure if I'll post it even if I do finish it - it's just so... I dunno. Daft?

I'm having a problem. As someone who has written mostly shippy fic, I'm naturally gravitating towards writing it again.

BUT.

Before, the couple I wrote did at least end up as a couple in canon, and there had also been loads and loads of signposts along the way that that was going to happen eventually.

But in DW, there are no canon ships (well - there might be, but not yet!). No, not even Nine or Ten and Rose. There is some UST but there is no "R", whichever pairing you like best. So I find that I'm continually pulling myself back - not from writing RST, because I can't bring myself to do that, but from piling on the "U" by the truckload.

Those of you out there who write fic - let me ask you a question or two. If you write shippy fic, do you usually write characters who are either together or pretty likely to end up that way? Or doesn't that matter, because this is "just fic"? If you write non-canon ships, what is it about the characters and what you've seen on screen that makes you think they should pair up?

I suppose I'm trying to adjust my mindset and I'm interested in your thoughts.

Comments

[hooloovoo_42]

As you know, I do *not* write.

But from a reader's perspective, I read all kinds of non-canon ships. Specifically in the Stargate-verse, where pretty much every character is paired with any other character, het, slash, group, inanimate objects etc. Some work better than others and some are more obvious than others. I mean, if Jack & Daniel or Shepard & McKay hadn't been written like they were in the first place, nobody would have thought they were doing it like bunnies in the supply closets!!!

I think that it's down to the writer and how believable they can make the relationship while keeping the characters in-character. The pairings I don't really care about are the ones with the characters I'm less invested in. But I have read several pairings that weren't obvious to me that really seemed to work.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

if Jack & Daniel or Shepard & McKay hadn't been written like they were in the first place, nobody would have thought they were doing it like bunnies in the supply closets!!! BWAH! But true.

I think it's just me :( As you say, there are loads of people out there writing all sorts of pairings and people read and enjoy them. I can't work out what my problem is.

[kiss-me-cassie.livejournal.com]

the problem with 'likely to end up' is that it's all in the interpretation of the viewer. Does Sam wind up with Mallory, Ainsley, Josh or an OC? Depends on who you ask and in which context they are viewing the eps. So really, while I prefer that in my head Sam either wind up with Ainsley in the end or pining away with unreciprocated love for Josh, it doesn't matter. I can do BOTH. Because, yes, it IS just fic. If you write it believably, building on the actual canon, you can do whatever you want.

(that said, you won't be hurt if I don't read Donna/Ten romantic fic, will you? The part I loved absolutely best about them is that they didn't have that outright romance like Rose or Martha. I firmly *want* to believe they were just pals, despite what may or may not have shown up on they screen.)

[caz963.livejournal.com]

If you write it believably, building on the actual canon, you can do whatever you want.


Hm. Good point :)

I am absolutely NOT writing Ten/Donna lovey-dovey stuff or smut, you can rest easy on that score! The last thing you said there is a good point actually, because I suspect that much of "the basis" (if there is one) for Ten/Donna is because David and Catherine have that whole Tracy/Hepburn thing going on (not my words - Julie Gardner's!) - ie, the chemistry between the actors is the primary factor, if that makes sense? Blah. When you consider some of the daft pairings that are almost certainly out there in the majority of fandoms, I don't know what I'm obsessing about. Well, yes, I do. It's because writing "in character" is important to me and I'm trying to work out where my boundaries are.

Possibly.

Or I'm just bonkers.

[madly-love.livejournal.com]

I can tell you that I write plenty of fanfics and I tend to write about characters who for me have chances to end up together but most of the time they don't, lol :)

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Hee! I suppose that's the point - we write what we see and want to see. But one of the challenges of writing, for me, is keeping as in character as I can, and there are some ships which are waaaay OOC.

Meh. Perhaps I should exorcise my shippy needs on paper and then set fire to it!

[hooloovoo_42]

Release your Inner Toby ;-)

And yes, don't set fire to the computer!!!

[abbyromana.livejournal.com]

Keeping in character can be challenging, depending how you are approaching their characters (voice, actions, reactions, accent, etc). The easiest way is to pull from the aspects of the character that stand out to you and used those in your writing of them.

Of course, remember above all else, that characters are only part of what makes a story enjoyable. Remember to make the plot and development of the story clear and detailed enough (show, don't tell), so that the reader can picture what your have written for the characters. They will enjoy it not only for the characters but the story itself.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

I wrote a long reply to this and LJ ate it, so I hope I can remember what I said!

Characterisation is just about my number one "thing" when reading or writing fic. I tend to write character pieces rather than the big plotty stuff, so I suppose it's even more essential.

I started writing fanfic in what I think is a difficult fandom to write and get right - The West Wing. The characters are all very clearly deliniated with very distinctive speech patterns, mannerisms and motivations - but I like the challenge of getting those right. I think that in some shows, the characters tend to be more... generic, if that makes sense, which I think makes them easier to get right. I'm not explaining that very well, but if you know the show, you'll know what I mean. (And if you don't know the show, why not? It's fabulous!)

Most of the stuff I wrote was Josh/Donna shippy stuff (and smut!) - and Ten and Donna are very like them in a lot of ways; best friends who understand each other and who look out for each other while the sparks fly in that Tracy/Hepburn way.

[abbyromana.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I think I might have seen... maybe one episode of West Wing. I'm not much for serious dramas, unless there's something in the show that draws me (character, concept, etc).

Any way, I agree characterization is important (and should always try to be done as closely to the real characters), but if you write only for the characters, it limits who your readers are and how far you can take the story. Obviously, if you are writing a quickie or drabble characterizations might be able to stand on their own. However, I think for a longer story, even one running several pages, characterization needs support from a well-developed plot and back story.

[hibernate.livejournal.com]

I usually prefer ships that AREN'T canon actually. I like to write or read about characters that make for interesting and unusual combinations and maybe my tastes are just odd but it's quite rare for me to feel that way about canon couples. It could be that I just don't like traditional romance very much. And I'm very fond of femslash, which there is sadly very little of in most canons. If canon won't give me what I want, then I'm going to make it happen myself in fic. That's what it's for! Exploring things that wouldn't be possible in canon.

In terms of Donna/Ten, I think what I like most about them are the blurred lines between friendship and something else. They're amazing friends and partners, but they'd also be dead hot together. With the Doctor, though it's always going to be very complicated. I love it when they sort of hover over that line.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

That last paragraph is more or less where I'm at on Ten and Donna, too. But like I said somewhere upthread, I'm not sure how much of it is the characters, and how much is the actors, if that makes sense?

I think that if Ten and Rose were, as David so succinctly put it, "a romance without the shagging", then Ten and Donna are a marriage without the shagging :-)

[luinel-anduril.livejournal.com]

Dang, i might have to quote you on that! That's so brilliantly put... and yet so sad. What's wrong with Time Lords getting to shag? /cry

[caz963.livejournal.com]

What's wrong with Time Lords getting to shag?

Being serious, it's a family show and lots of kids watch it! My eldest has been watching it since it came back in 2005, and she's ten now, so...

But yes, it's no wonder Ten is so manic most of the time. He needs to work off some of that excess energy! *g*

[ebony-steinbach.livejournal.com]

I think that if Ten and Rose were, as David so succinctly put it, "a romance without the shagging", then Ten and Donna are a marriage without the shagging

This. Is. Perfect. What I've tried to express about Doctor/Donna in 1 1/2 years, you've done in 50 words or less. They do have an old married couple vibe going on, especially in Midnight. At the same time though, my personal in-canon theory is that he Doctor's the one with the crush and Donna's clueless about it. Out of canon, anything goes, as long as they're in character and keep the banter.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Banter is not a problem! My OTP is Josh/Donna (West Wing) who are also all about the banter, and have that whole screwball comedy thing going on as well - which is what I also love about Ten and Donna.
I don't do lovey-dovey - because it's not in character for the characters I write, even when, as with Josh and Donna they are a couple. If you've spent nine years snarking at each other, it doesn't just stop because you're in a relationship! (I've been with Mr Caz for almost 20 years and we still have the snark-factor!)
I do like your idea about the Doctor having the crush - I have something on the go from his PoV that could be seen that way :)

[abbyromana.livejournal.com]

If canon won't give me what I want, then I'm going to make it happen myself in fic. That's what it's for! Exploring things that wouldn't be possible in canon.

Very true! Fanfiction is for exploring the impossible or unlikely, but it also can stay within canon by exploring what was left unsaid or not shown.

[zinke.livejournal.com]

I think the reason you struggle with writing 'shippy non-canon fic is directly related to your (and my) tendancy to want to have every detail of a fic right - even if we know without a doubt that no one would notice (or care) if it's wrong.

You're a perfectionist, woman! Revel in it - I know I do! *g*

As for the other thing, I think I agree with what others have said here; you see what you want to see between characters. And I don't mean that in a willful way; there is a reason there are so many 'ship out there for each show; different groups of people are going to connect with different characters, and ther feelings are going to resonate with different relationships (friendly and otherwise). It's what makes fanodm so interesting (and sometimes scary).

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Meh - perfectionism isn't all it's cracked up to be!

You haven't seen what I wrote this afternoon. I really should remember not to watch Midnight the next time it's on...

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

do you usually write characters who are either together or pretty likely to end up that way? Or doesn't that matter, because this is "just fic"?

It is not that it is "just" fic, it is that fic is the artform where we run with our own takes on other people's stories, so it is sort of in its element with non-canonical pairings. Even better is our fandom has a time machine so anyone can get it on with anyone else, yay!

Also "likely to" is in the eye of the beholder. I can see the Doctor shagging Donna before he'd do Rose or Martha, based on his non-sexual relationships with them all. In fact I could quite believe that they Did It between episodes, because there's nothing to say they didn't, unlike with the other two. And the bit I saw of End of Time did convince me at least that the Doctor was madly in love with Donna. So what's canon, really?


If you write non-canon ships, what is it about the characters and what you've seen on screen that makes you think they should pair up?

I write pairings that seem win together. Sometimes I get lucky and like a canon one (omg Ten/Reinette <3) but mostly I write pairings that never happened. Cos I want to explore the relationship a bit or just cos it seems like they'd be hot together. Fic lets us see things the show never would. I mean, I can get all the delicious Four/Romana gen/UST I want from the actual episodes, but fic lets us see what it'd be like if they accidentally married and made a baby that destroyed the universe. Though obviously Adric was their child too.

I say don't worry too much about what canon says. It's useful for knowing what colour someone's eyes are but beyond that we're under no obligation to do what we're told. TV!Canon is never going to show me what would happen if the Doctor and Donna got together romantically, but I still want to occasionally see how other people think it would play out. Plus DW has wildly contradictory stories (did the Doctor blow up Skaro or was it still there for the War? What exactly happened to Atlantis?) so I think we can get away with quite a lot in this fandom.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

what it'd be like if they accidentally married and made a baby that destroyed the universe. Though obviously Adric was their child too.

Hahahahaha!!!!

And the bit I saw of End of Time did convince me at least that the Doctor was madly in love with Donna. - You've not seen all of it? (And which bit? I'm curious...)

It's been stated a lot that there is no canon in DW, so I suppose that makes it easier to 'bend' it!

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Adric is EXACTLY the annoying, arrogant, over-clever child they'd have!


You've not seen all of it? (And which bit? I'm curious...)

I've not seen anything since Midnight apart from Planet Of The Dead. But I have seen the cafe bit where the Doctor is all "omg my Donna I need my Donna I love her so" and looking at her adoringly out of love. LOVE!

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Okay, so after you said that bit about the cafe scene, I had to go and rewatch it. And yes. Bloody hell, yes.

And then I remembered that in Rusty's book, the companion in S4 - before the idea of Catherine coming back had even been thought of - was going to have been someone that the Doctor fell for, head-over-heels, WHAM! (as he put it). Of course, Donna coming back meant that that character never happened, but it does make me wonder if that was still in his head somehow and some of it leaked out and got absorbed into his scripts by a process of osmosis!

Or maybe I just need new glasses...

Oh, also

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

It's not always a blessing when your pairing have ended up together in some way, because that brings more restrictions on what they can do in fic. We end up all knowing what happened and when so we can't just make it up. While I enjoy the occasional ability to go "Squeeee, my ship is so canon!" it tends to get old for me pretty fast once I realise there's only so much I can make up before I have to start labelling things as an obvious AU.

[abbyromana.livejournal.com]

I'm a very open writer. Since I have no loyalty to any particular ship, slash, or femslash, I write according to my plot bunnies. This means I don't care whether I pair characters or not in a story, or whether they are canon, likely pairings, or non-canon pairings. I'm more concerned with the story itself.

Of course, I try as much as possible to stay true to canon, since it helps to keep the characters in character as shown on the TV. Still, the point of fanfic is to explore beyond what was shown and even dip into things that might conflict with canon. Thus, if the story calls for two characters to pair up, then it happens.

For example, I came up with a story in the Stargate SG-1 universe where Daniel got a cold and was stuck in the SGC due to being connected to Vala still. This may or may not fit with the events in the beginning of season 9. I only initially knew he and Vala would be in the story. Considering that I might be breaking with canon, I allowed myself more leeway in writing them, while trying to stay in character as much as possible. Whether they'd be shippy or friends wasn't important until after I figured out the plot and development. Once that was decided, it became obvious to me that the suggestion of a possible ship came into play.

Similarly, when I've written Ten and Donna stories in the Doctor Who universe, I vary their relationship and interactions on what the story calls for. Since there's nothing definite to say they are a canon pairing, I try to keep it open to interpretation as much as possible, unless I know the story called for them to be something more.

Therefore, I suggest focusing more on the concept(s) or plot(s) of a story. I find that once that's founded any relationships or created relationships fall into place, or at the very least, it will be more clear how you might want to approach the characters interactions and closeness.

[totallyforgot.livejournal.com]

Personally, I always gravitate to non-canon pairings just because. The characters, to me, are always the most important bit and the situations just help show them. The world's ending? That's nice, what are so-and-so doing? I love pairing odd characters up, even if only in my head, just to see how they would work out and even if two characters have never met in canon you can usually make sense of how they act.

I think that's what fanfiction is for, you know. It's meant to give us the ability to explore whatever wasn't on screen or in the book. I love Donna and the Doctor because despite all their denials and insistence to the otherwise I'm certain they would have ended up together, had they had enough time. They're canon in my head. But, I'm also writing a Life on Mars/Doctor Who fic with Donna and Gene so canon is wibbly-wobbly to me. And I've been dabbling in Donna/Master fics so what does that say about me? I just love how characters interact.

[ebony-steinbach.livejournal.com]

And I've been dabbling in Donna/Master fics so what does that say about me? I just love how characters interact

I definitely agree with you about being interested in how characters interact. Donna, especially, I find fun to read when she's paired with other people because she's well-rounded and strong enough a character to push a story along. I like reading the different dynamics. At the moment I'm curious to see how she would play off the Master (especially after the missed opportunity in EoT) so I'd really be interested in any Donna-Master fics you've written, are writing or have read.

[totallyforgot.livejournal.com]

I myself haven't written any because I can't seem to get a solid idea for them, but I have found a few good ones. The very first one (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4444371/1/in_this_world_you_cannot_change) I read was just absolutely awesome and it's my favorite. this one (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5174035/1/An_Unlikely_Pairing) I liked alright, but it's not as good. And you shouldn't read this one (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4960027/1/The_Dead) unless you have some time to sit around and become completely and utterly depressed.

I also found THE COOLEST VIDEO EVER. (http://showyourvids.ning.com/video/am-i-ever-gonna-find-out)

They are a rare breed and I've been scouring the interwebs for more, but it's tough to come across them.

[ebony-steinbach.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much. I've read the last two already. That third one is depressing. I haven't read the first one though.

[totallyforgot.livejournal.com]

So, About half an hour after posting that comment I started to get an idea and now I'm working on just a little one-shot of interaction for them. Let's see how that turns out.

Donna is so my little black dress; she goes with everything. You can safely pair her with just about anyone and trust that it will be awesome because she is so awesome.

[ebony-steinbach.livejournal.com]

Donna is so my little black dress; she goes with everything

I'm so glad you said that, because, for a while now, I've been a bit embarrassed about my ... very loose pairing of Donna with other characters. She does go well with everyone. So far, I've read her paired with Gene Hunt, the Master, Dean from Supernatural, Martha and Sarah Jane (another favourite, especially as just friends, but sadly another rarity), to name a few, and I've loved them all. Doctor/Donna is my default though.

Speaking of Donna-Master fics, have you read this one (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=adroidmortox247&keyword=je&filter=all). It's not actually Donna/Master, but does answer the question "What would happen if Donna met bent-on-world-domination!Master?". Unfortunately, it's not finished and very likely never will be (though I wish he would)

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Donna is so my little black dress; she goes with everything


I think that she's definitely a certain type of "everywoman" - and I mean that in a good way - which is perhaps why people find she works well with other characters. Donna and Gene - that would be a slanging match I'd like to be a fly on the wall for! *g*

[caz963.livejournal.com]

despite all their denials and insistence to the otherwise I'm certain they would have ended up together, had they had enough time. - and had this been a different show!

But yes, I like to think that, too. They cared so deeply for one another, and I think Donna came the closest to understanding him that anyone ever has.

[quaggy]

If you write shippy fic, do you usually write characters who are either together or pretty likely to end up that way? Or doesn't that matter, because this is "just fic"?

To be honest two of the non-West Wing pairings I write the most for are both non-canon, and if the creators are to be believed, will never be canon. I write fic to "fix" that, so to speak. Fic fulfills two needs, in my opinion. First is the desire to see what comes next and/or what we didn't get a chance to see. The second is to play "what if" and/or explore things that canon cannot. Writing fic for non-canon pairings is no different than writing an AU.

If you write non-canon ships, what is it about the characters and what you've seen on screen that makes you think they should pair up?

It's different for every couple. There's just something about their interactions that's appealing. Truthfully there's no difference between shipping canon pairings and non-canon pairings. For a long, long time it wasn't clear that Josh & Donna would wind up together. We as shippers believed they would... but if West Wing had been cancelled earlier, they would never truly achieved canon status.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

For a long, long time it wasn't clear that Josh & Donna would wind up together.

That's true - although of course, you know that I didn't start writing them until after they did!

It's unusual for me to be writing so much bloody UST though!

[mihane-echo.livejournal.com]

I admit that I think its a mixture of writing and chemistry. Its likely that any ship, no matter how bogus (whether canon or not) can be written to believeability by a skilled wordsmith, and that pretty much covers it in book and manga fandoms.

Once you introduce performers, chemistry takes over, and I dont care how well you write the characters, if the actors dont have any chemistry, I lose interest and don't see the ship. OTOH, if your actors have it coming out of their ears, the ship begins to build.

I write primarily Ten/Donna ('primarily' being my keyword for I Ship It Hardcore,) despite the fact that they aren't written to be a canon ship. I chalk that up mostly to David Tennant and Catherine Tate; no matter what they do, the sparks start flying. (The other part is my personal affinity with best friends who fall for each other.) That said, I dont write them falling all over each other and spouting love poems, because there IS the canon to consider, and you cant push the characters too far too quickly because otherwise its all just a big nasty mess of OOCness.

Most of what I write, pre-JE, is all UST and angsting. I set all my established relationship fic post-JE because I just can't see the two of them ever being a couple in the boundaries that Series 4 canon has given us.

...Reading that back, Im not sure if there's even a point in there. 8/

[caz963.livejournal.com]

I have a 'friends who fall for each other' kink, too :) I've written mostly Josh/Donna (The West Wing) who did end up together (after 7 bloody long years!) but who had an incredible friendship first. There was also amazing chemistry between the actors with plenty of snark, which is probably why I'm so drawn towards Ten and Donna.

I don't 'do' mushy-lovey-dovey with couples like that, because it's just not in character. I've said somewhere upthread that just because characters become lovers, it doesn't mean that the banter stops.

I shall have to check out your fic - it sounds like we're on the same wavelength. I've not read much DW fic at all really, mostly because I don't have a lot of time, and because there's such a lot of it to sift through. I'm not as patient as I was when I first discovered fanfic - back then I'd read most things and chalk the less well characterised, well-written stuff up to experience and not read it again! But I don't have time for that now - I want to get straight to the good stuff!

[ebony-steinbach.livejournal.com]

I can't speak as a writer, only as a reader. I feel that fic is where you go to get the stories you can't get in canon. There's no right or wrong. If a reader doesn't like it, they should go somewhere else. I used to be a staunch Doctor/Donna friendshipper, and even the idea of them kissing in a vaguely romantic way was icky. I fell in love with their canonical friendship, which continues to fascinate me. Then I read a very good romance fic, and the writer, Skyhiatrist, managed to keep everything I loved about their friendship - the banter, the closeness - and also add the romantic twist. So I think that, as long as you've got a strong enough story, or dialogue, and keep the characters in-character, writing non-canon parings can be fascinating to read.

Forgot to add

[ebony-steinbach.livejournal.com]

I forgot to add that, while I read tons of Doctor/Donna fic and firmly believe that, if the Doctor should be with anyone, it should be Donna, I still define myself as a friendshipper first. They could stay best friends for ever and I'd be more than happy. I don't feel they need to shag (although quite a few fics where they do are terribly fun to read : P) It's the platonic aspects of their relationship that are amazing.

Re: Forgot to add

[totallyforgot.livejournal.com]

So, now I want to read this fic. I did a brief search for the author but came up with nothing Doctor Who-y.

Re: Forgot to add

[ebony-steinbach.livejournal.com]

Here's the fic (http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=22323). Her other stuff's really good too.

Re: Forgot to add

[totallyforgot.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Most of the Ten and Donna fic I've read has been friendship fic, and it's great. I've said somewhere here that I'm not actually writing them as a couple, but I'm finding that I'm piling on huge dollops of UST! And I suppose what I'm worried about is finding a basis for it in what we've seen on screen - and then convincing myself that it's actually there and not just all in my head!

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Then I read a very good romance fic, and the writer, Skyhiatrist, managed to keep everything I loved about their friendship

Oh - I'll have to check out that fic - do you have a link or title?

[ebony-steinbach.livejournal.com]

The story's called Now or Never (http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=22323). I recommend her other stories as well. She hasn't written in a year though, which I just think is a shame. As for the UST between the Doctor and Donna, I never got it from watching S4 (although I got a whiff of it during the cafe scene in EoT) but I know a lot of other people saw it. It's a matter of interpretation.

Also, try this fic rec (http://beagleinspace.livejournal.com/6083.html). Beagleinspace has divided the fics into categories reflecting the Doctor and Donna's relationship.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the recs and the links - I'll check them out.