More thoughts about the Pandorica
Jun. 20th, 2010 11:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
caz963Like everyone else, I’ve been reading and thinking and re-reading and thinking some more in the hope of coming up with a theory as to what the hell is going on and how on earth our hero is going to get out of this one!
Apart from the crack itself, there have been so many clues and trails of breadcrumbs planted throughout the series that it’s quite hard to keep track of them all, and in fact, I’ll be very surprised if ALL of those issues are resolved next week, for two main reasons. 1) I reckon there’s a large number of red herrings in there, because Moff strikes me as the type who knows only too well that there’s a contingent of us out here who will be analyzing the crap out of even the smallest things and 2) because it would take an hour of Matt Smith just talking to camera to explain it all, and that won’t really make for a great hour of TV (unless you’re a Matt fangirl, which I’m not.)
Here, anyway is a bunch of random stuff that has occurred to me over the past few days and weeks and since I watched ep 12 yesterday.
Interesting – River in the “Star Wars” style Cantina, which was the last place we saw Jack in EoT. Ten’s matchmaking tendencies clearly live on in Eleven. *g* And the reference to the “handsome time-agent” was clearly meant to make us think of Jack, even if our next reaction was “eeeeew - his arm’s in that box!” But hey - it’s Jack! For all we know, he was killed for the Vortex Manipulator and then grew a new arm/hand when he woke up. Or he’ll be “the one-armed-man” in the next series of TW.
And of course, I’m sure (as DT would say, given this is the Beeb) – “other handsome time-agents are available” – so it might not have been Jack and just Moff winking at the audience.
BUT. Look at this.
See the little guy sitting just behind the Princess Leia lookalike?
Guess who had the arm-in-a-box?
And when I saw that, I was reminded of the Front Row interview SM did just before the start of the series, when he said that Rusty had asked him to send over the episodes on DVD so he could see them… and then Moff said that there was one episode that RTD had HAD to see. Of course, he wouldn’t say any more… but maybe it was to do with that scene? Which would make it pretty unimportant really... meh, just an observation.
I think it’s pretty clear by now that the Doctor DID in fact go back for little Amelia when he said he would – we just didn’t see it – and that whatever he told her is the thing he needs her to remember. Although I think that it’s the actual act of remembering that’s important, rather than whatever it is he said. Because if it was the latter, then he could have told her himself. It could have been something as simple as “don’t forget me” or something along those lines, because Amelia is clearly the key to this. Or one of them. And there has been a persistent focus on the importance of memory and stories throughout the series. Each episode has contained a reference to it somewhere – from the repeated “time can be rewritten” to the Doctor’s speech in 5x12 about memory being able to bring things back.
He’s clearly been aware all along that there’s something up with Amy. I remember thinking that his evasion when she asked him “why her?” at the end of TEH was suspicious. I’ve wondered that all series, to be honest!
What I’m asking myself now is – is Amy really Amy? Is she an Auton, too? Planted by the alliance to keep tabs on the Doctor? It could certainly account for her inconsistent behaviour throughout most of this series, and for the fact that she’s not a particularly well-drawn character. If the other Autons have been created using Amelia’s memories as a “template”, then it makes sense that grown-up Amy would be a bit … different. If she’s based on what a little girl’s idea of a grown-up is, while retaining some of the self-absorbtion and selfishness of a child.
Although grown-up Amy must exist in reality, because Karen Gillan has signed on for another series. BUT. If, as many suspect (and I’m beginning to), this is all going to culminate in a big-red-button-type reset, then none of this will have happened and Amelia will have grown up into a much pleasanter young woman and the Doctor can find her again in 2010.
River. She’s stuck in the TARDIS which is about to explode. We’ve already seen her die once, in the Library, and we’ve seen her post-Pandorica in the Angels two-parter, where she clearly stated that she REMEMBERS it [the Pandorica] well. Time IS being rewritten, because if she dies in the explosion, she can’t meet her Doctor; she can’t summon Ten to the Library and she can’t be present at the Crash of the Byzantium.
Moffat said in the DWC for ToA (I think) that we would see River’s story played out – although he didn’t say it would necessarily be in this series. Personally, I hope it’s not, because I’d like to see her again in future series.
So. How does the Doctor escape from the Pandorica? I don’t think he does – not in 102AD anyway. There’s a photo from the next episode which shows a picture of it in what looks like a museum, but even before I’d seen that, I was thinking that perhaps he is actually stuck in there until somehow little Amelia is able to release him in 1995/6 or whenever it is. Which could be the thing he told her to remember when she was seven. (Which, I'm aware contradicts what I said before about the act of remembering being more important than the thing to be remembered). That, however would mean that he’s been stuck in a box for almost 2000 years; and even given a Time Lord’s long lifespan one would assume he’d need some form of sustenance to survive all that time. BUT – the alliance would surely know how dangerous the Doctor can be when he’s desperate, and given that most of them know him of old and that he’s escaped from them time and time again, it makes sense that they’d have taken steps to disable him completely. For some reason, they didn’t want to simply kill him, so maybe, inside the Pandorica, he’s put into some kind of suspended animation.
And this is where the reset could come into play – because if the Doctor is imprisoned in 102AD and not released by Amelia until 1995/6 (I’m assuming it’s 1996 because if Amelia is 22 in 2010, she’d be 7 in 1995/6) then he’s not been around and all the things that have happened in the Whoniverse can’t have happened. But that not only undoes everything that’s happened in nu-Who, it undoes EVERYTHING from all of DW because there’s no Doctor.
So yeah. Maybe not.
I’ve not even begun to touch on the “Future or jacket!Doctor crossing his own timeline to put things right” theory; or about why the TARDIS is exploding; what's caused the cracks; why Leadworth is the village "that time forgot" and all the rest of it because my brain is pretty much fried at this point. Maybe later in the week, if I get a chance to think about it all some more.
And if I don't, well I'll be sitting here next Saturday with my head in my hands as I reread this and wonder how I got it all so badly wrong!
Apart from the crack itself, there have been so many clues and trails of breadcrumbs planted throughout the series that it’s quite hard to keep track of them all, and in fact, I’ll be very surprised if ALL of those issues are resolved next week, for two main reasons. 1) I reckon there’s a large number of red herrings in there, because Moff strikes me as the type who knows only too well that there’s a contingent of us out here who will be analyzing the crap out of even the smallest things and 2) because it would take an hour of Matt Smith just talking to camera to explain it all, and that won’t really make for a great hour of TV (unless you’re a Matt fangirl, which I’m not.)
Here, anyway is a bunch of random stuff that has occurred to me over the past few days and weeks and since I watched ep 12 yesterday.
Interesting – River in the “Star Wars” style Cantina, which was the last place we saw Jack in EoT. Ten’s matchmaking tendencies clearly live on in Eleven. *g* And the reference to the “handsome time-agent” was clearly meant to make us think of Jack, even if our next reaction was “eeeeew - his arm’s in that box!” But hey - it’s Jack! For all we know, he was killed for the Vortex Manipulator and then grew a new arm/hand when he woke up. Or he’ll be “the one-armed-man” in the next series of TW.
And of course, I’m sure (as DT would say, given this is the Beeb) – “other handsome time-agents are available” – so it might not have been Jack and just Moff winking at the audience.
BUT. Look at this.
See the little guy sitting just behind the Princess Leia lookalike?
Guess who had the arm-in-a-box?
And when I saw that, I was reminded of the Front Row interview SM did just before the start of the series, when he said that Rusty had asked him to send over the episodes on DVD so he could see them… and then Moff said that there was one episode that RTD had HAD to see. Of course, he wouldn’t say any more… but maybe it was to do with that scene? Which would make it pretty unimportant really... meh, just an observation.
I think it’s pretty clear by now that the Doctor DID in fact go back for little Amelia when he said he would – we just didn’t see it – and that whatever he told her is the thing he needs her to remember. Although I think that it’s the actual act of remembering that’s important, rather than whatever it is he said. Because if it was the latter, then he could have told her himself. It could have been something as simple as “don’t forget me” or something along those lines, because Amelia is clearly the key to this. Or one of them. And there has been a persistent focus on the importance of memory and stories throughout the series. Each episode has contained a reference to it somewhere – from the repeated “time can be rewritten” to the Doctor’s speech in 5x12 about memory being able to bring things back.
He’s clearly been aware all along that there’s something up with Amy. I remember thinking that his evasion when she asked him “why her?” at the end of TEH was suspicious. I’ve wondered that all series, to be honest!
What I’m asking myself now is – is Amy really Amy? Is she an Auton, too? Planted by the alliance to keep tabs on the Doctor? It could certainly account for her inconsistent behaviour throughout most of this series, and for the fact that she’s not a particularly well-drawn character. If the other Autons have been created using Amelia’s memories as a “template”, then it makes sense that grown-up Amy would be a bit … different. If she’s based on what a little girl’s idea of a grown-up is, while retaining some of the self-absorbtion and selfishness of a child.
Although grown-up Amy must exist in reality, because Karen Gillan has signed on for another series. BUT. If, as many suspect (and I’m beginning to), this is all going to culminate in a big-red-button-type reset, then none of this will have happened and Amelia will have grown up into a much pleasanter young woman and the Doctor can find her again in 2010.
River. She’s stuck in the TARDIS which is about to explode. We’ve already seen her die once, in the Library, and we’ve seen her post-Pandorica in the Angels two-parter, where she clearly stated that she REMEMBERS it [the Pandorica] well. Time IS being rewritten, because if she dies in the explosion, she can’t meet her Doctor; she can’t summon Ten to the Library and she can’t be present at the Crash of the Byzantium.
Moffat said in the DWC for ToA (I think) that we would see River’s story played out – although he didn’t say it would necessarily be in this series. Personally, I hope it’s not, because I’d like to see her again in future series.
So. How does the Doctor escape from the Pandorica? I don’t think he does – not in 102AD anyway. There’s a photo from the next episode which shows a picture of it in what looks like a museum, but even before I’d seen that, I was thinking that perhaps he is actually stuck in there until somehow little Amelia is able to release him in 1995/6 or whenever it is. Which could be the thing he told her to remember when she was seven. (Which, I'm aware contradicts what I said before about the act of remembering being more important than the thing to be remembered). That, however would mean that he’s been stuck in a box for almost 2000 years; and even given a Time Lord’s long lifespan one would assume he’d need some form of sustenance to survive all that time. BUT – the alliance would surely know how dangerous the Doctor can be when he’s desperate, and given that most of them know him of old and that he’s escaped from them time and time again, it makes sense that they’d have taken steps to disable him completely. For some reason, they didn’t want to simply kill him, so maybe, inside the Pandorica, he’s put into some kind of suspended animation.
And this is where the reset could come into play – because if the Doctor is imprisoned in 102AD and not released by Amelia until 1995/6 (I’m assuming it’s 1996 because if Amelia is 22 in 2010, she’d be 7 in 1995/6) then he’s not been around and all the things that have happened in the Whoniverse can’t have happened. But that not only undoes everything that’s happened in nu-Who, it undoes EVERYTHING from all of DW because there’s no Doctor.
So yeah. Maybe not.
I’ve not even begun to touch on the “Future or jacket!Doctor crossing his own timeline to put things right” theory; or about why the TARDIS is exploding; what's caused the cracks; why Leadworth is the village "that time forgot" and all the rest of it because my brain is pretty much fried at this point. Maybe later in the week, if I get a chance to think about it all some more.
And if I don't, well I'll be sitting here next Saturday with my head in my hands as I reread this and wonder how I got it all so badly wrong!
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no subject
Date: 2010-06-20 11:59 pm (UTC)What I don't yet understand is - at what point did the Doctor go back and visit young Amelia? At what point does he go back to the Byzantium to tell Amy to "remember what I told you when you were seven. No, that's not important... just remember."? Since I don't see much evidence that he's already done it, but going back and doing it after he's released from the Pandorica... doesn't make much sense to me yet.
I hope Amy is real, but she's lost most of her family to the Crack. I do wonder what initially caused the Crack or what caused the TARDIS to explode and create the Crack, since River said "something else was controlling it". I think we're in for a giant paradox, but I think we're in safe hands, plot-wise.
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 12:33 pm (UTC)You might already be aware of this theory, so apologies if I'm saying something you already know -
The going back to tell her "remember what I told you" is now known as the jacket!Doctor theory. In that episode, the Angels kept the Doctor's jacket when he escaped from them. The camera lingers on it, so we're supposed to notice. Then he leaves Amy in the forest, and is very casual about it - "see you later". His shirt cuffs are pretty ugly and very distinctive! A few seconds later, he's back, but his tone is completely different and he's wearing his jacket (and no fugly shirt cuffs) - so the theory is that there's a future version of Eleven running around crossing his own timeline trying to put things right. Other people have posted other instances of jacket!Doctor sightings, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.
As to how he's escaped - or perhaps avoided being put in the Pandorica in the first place, I have no idea!
There's got to be an evil genius behind it all, and yes, I think it's going to be a huge paradox.
I've never had any real doubts about Moffat's ability to craft a good story. I've had issues with the pacing of it, as I explained here (http://caz963.livejournal.com/377273.html) and have felt a lack of depth and engagement in/with the characters, but story-wise, it's brilliant.
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 08:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 09:17 pm (UTC)I think it was on the day he first met Amelia; he said he'd be back for her - and I think he DID go back like he said he would. I haven't got the episode on this computer to give you the timings, but it's near the end; just before we see grown up Amy wake up.
And yeah, that was one helluva cliffhanger!
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 09:28 pm (UTC)Actually, hang on, he's known since he found a piece of the TARDIS at the end of Cold Blood that things were panning out this way, but this series seems so tightly put together I can't think of a time he's without Amy and able to run off and change the past!
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 09:42 pm (UTC)I suppose it depends on how far into the future jacket!Doctor is. I've always assumed he's maybe a year or so further along than the rest of us, rather than that he's from the very immediate future.
And even if that's not the case, it would be theoretically quite simple for him to pop off to do a couple of hours fixing (while he and Amy are visiting somewhere) and then get back to her ten seconds after he left. Well, it would be if the TARDIS wasn't being so temperamental this series!
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 10:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 04:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 12:45 pm (UTC)I suppose what I was thinking of was this whole "time can be rewritten" thing - if the Doctor is imprisoned "forever" in 102AD, he can't be around defeating Daleks and Cybermen and Autons and everyone else from 1963 onwards ;-) because sticking him in that box in his "present" affects his past.
At least, that's what I think I meant!
Alternatively, your way does account for the jacket!Doctor who appears to be running around trying to sort things out.
But yeah, whatever it is, it's one helluva paradox.
Watch 11th hour again...
Date: 2010-06-21 12:41 pm (UTC)Re: Watch 11th hour again...
Date: 2010-06-21 12:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 03:20 pm (UTC)Not sure how that would work but...it's an idea.
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 05:49 pm (UTC)I'm convinced it's all to do with memory - the Doctor is gone from history but can come back because Amelia remembers him. The synopsis for the episode says -
The Doctor is gone, the Tardis has been destroyed, and the universe is collapsing. The only hope for all reality is a little girl who still believes in stars,
Interesting - still believes in STARS - because we saw them all go out at the end of TPO.
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 08:57 pm (UTC)Yes, that's what I thought when I re-read that synopsis after the Pandorica Opens.
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 07:52 pm (UTC)...meanwhile, we've seen a still of Amelia talking to the Doctor in what looks like a museum and another of her in front of an opening Pandorica (also in the museum). I assume this is the conversation he had with her when she was seven. How could the Doctor get there to talk to her, be in two places at the same time? I suppose if he's actually crossing his own time line...but...it also assumes that somehow he knows he'll end up in the Pandorica and before that happened he used the Vortex Manipulator (not the Tardis) to go back and talk to Amelia. Though...now the problem I'm having with that scenario (my brain is going nuts) is that technically, if he's in the Pandorica and time has been rewritten, THAT Amelia never met him in the first place. AND I guess it's actually an alternate reality. So how did he get there?
The more I think of it, I think two things will happen: somehow the Doctor will be released from the Pandorica, ending that part of the plot. THEN he will have to "fix" Amelia/Amy, which involves another set of action. I'm not totally for or against the jacket!Doctor scenario, BUT, the problem I've always had with his appearance in Flesh and Stone is that, if he had something of immense importance to convey to Amy, if it was absolutely necessary to get through to her "you MUST remember something I told you when you were seven", why did he choose THAT particular moment? My point being, she was terrified of the Angels, nearly on the brink of dying, what she needed at that time was something to comfort her and give her strength. Why present her with a mystery right then? And more importantly, considering the stress she was under, how could he assume she would be able to remember that? THIS is my main issue with jacket!Doctor.
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 09:26 pm (UTC)I'm assuming that somehow Earth history continued up to 1995/6 only without all of the attacks by various aliens since they no longer exist.
Which would imply that neither does Gallifrey - so again, no Doctor.
I think the conversation he had with her when she was seven was the "missing" scene from the end of TEH, where she's sitting on her suitcase in the garden, hears the TARDIS, looks up and smiles - then we cut to grown up Amy waking up, we thought at the time from a dream. But I think he DID (or jacket!Doctor did) go back for her and that's when he told her whatever it was she has to remember.
If we assume that jacket!Doctor is from his own future, then it's fair to assume he would also know abot the Pandorica and that whatever he's doing by crossing his own timeline - which as we've been repeatedly told is a dangerous thing to do - is to assure that it either doesn't happen OR that he has the means to escape.
As to the moment in F&S... there is a theory that jacket!Doctor is acually USING the cracks to travel through time and space. He doesn't have the TARDIS (or a VM)... if you subscribe to that theory (and I'm not sure about it), then he could have chosen that moment in F&S because it was the closest he could get to Amy when she was on her own via the crack which was reasonably close to her at that point. He might not have had a choice.
no subject
Date: 2010-06-21 11:02 pm (UTC)no Doctor because...? I guess it depends on when the Doctor was born, in reference to the Earth's time line? Or, if the lock on the Time War stays intact regardless?
If the Doctor is going back in time to stop himself from getting trapped in the Pandorica then clearly he escaped somehow. At that point, what reason does he have to go back and change things, unless it's simply to "fix" Amelia?