Time, Space ... and Sexism
Mar. 20th, 2011 09:07 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
caz963I feel like I’m taking my life in my hands by writing this, but it’s been on my mind since I began reading the various reactions to the Comic Relief DW special and I wanted to try to explain why I’m not as “up in arms” about it as some people are.
I am in NO WAY attempting to trivialize the concerns I’ve seen expressed or to say that those are not valid opinions. I hope that anyone reading this will know that’s something I would never do. I try to understand differing opinions, not slag them off.
Okay. So my first impressions, as I wrote here, were more to do with the fact that practically everything in Space and Time is stuff we’ve seen before – either in Moffat’s own Time Crash (where Ten saved the day because he remembered watching himself (as Ten) when he was Five) or in earlier DW stories (the TARDIS materializing within the TARDIS had been done in The Time Monster (Three) and Logopolis (Four)) – AND that it was a very tongue-in-cheek nod to all those moans about the fact that Amy spent most of the last series wearing skirts that were barely long enough to cover her – er – modesty ;-)
I admit I did wince a few times – the stuff about the driving test was in really bad taste, I thought - but mostly I was sniggering at the fact that Moff had let his inner 12 year-old run free and was trotting out some of the most clichéd schoolboy/seaside postcard humour I’ve seen on telly for a while.
I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing; it seems to me, on the whole, that us Brits tend to be a bit more laid back about political correctness and “isms” than some other cultures – and again - I’m not slagging anyone off, just wondering aloud! I mean – *hangs head in shame* - we gave the world Benny Hill after all. A fact for which I feel compelled to apologise profoundly. Oddly, there was an early Carry On film on on Saturday afternoon, in which the humour is very much in the same vein, and I found myself wondering how they could get away with showing it these days. Okay, so I know that it was made in the 1960s - we’ve moved on since then.
Anyway. what I’ve been wondering is whether I’m dim, insensitive or just a bad feminist, because I’m prepared to dismiss it as – admittedly poor - “schoolboy humour” rather than deliberate sexism.
When I first saw the various debates here on LJ which talked about how Moffat’s views on women – ones that he’s not been shy of expressing in a number of interviews – are informing his writing, I was surprised because, as I said, I don’t tend to see things like this unless it’s either a) incredibly, glaringly obvious or b) pointed out to me afterwards.
(As another example. At the risk of opening up another can of worms about another “ism” – I was surprised to discover that the fact that Martha’s family were dressed in servants’ uniform at the end of S3 was widely thought to be racist.
I never saw that at all. My brain doesn’t go – “oh, they’re black so they have to wear servants’ uniforms”. It goes – “oh, they’re servants so they have to wear servants’ uniforms.”
They’d have been wearing them had they been White, Indian, Chinese, Hispanic or whatever, because the point was that the Jones family had been enslaved by the Master. But that’s by the by.)
It was while reading one of those discussions about Moffat that I read an old interview in which he made some spectacularly sexist comments, and I admit I was shocked. Not just at the views expressed, but that fact that he actually SAID THEM OUT LOUD!
For anyone who doesn’t know what I’m talking about, the comments are these ones (thanks to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kilodalton for reminding me of them).
And this –
source.
Sounds like a manifesto for Mysogynists-R-Us. And my response to that last quote is – if you’re going to spout crap like that, then I’m not at all surprised.
I don’t think I’m stupid or insensitive – so perhaps it’s to do with the fact that I grew up in the 70s when humour of the type we’re talking about was rife; and while I didn’t particularly like it, I’m used to it? I know that’s not an argument that paints me in a particularly flattering light either, but I can’t think of another reason as to why I’m not more worked up about this.
So yes, I can definitely see what people are talking about when they talk about Moffat being sexist, and I admit his attitude makes me uncomfortable. I mean, sure he’s created a sexy, feisty, independent, clever, kick-arse female character in River Song, but what is she if not the manifestation of what I’ve referred to before as Moffat’s ultimate fantasy – a feisty, sexy, clever woman who is most definitely NOT needy or hunting for a husband? She doesn’t want to tie the hero down because she’s not interested in domesticity herself.
As anyone who’s read my other witterings about DW knows, I’m not Moffat’s greatest fan. I admire his skill and I like his sense of humour (mostly), but I can’t quite bring myself to believe that he’s so bloody stupid and/or insensitive as to allow his personal, unflattering views on women to be seeping into his work. And this was only a six-minute charity thing, after all, probably a bit hastily thrown together.
Perhaps the problem is that I’m too naïve.
I can certainly see why there are people out there who are incensed by what was supposed to be a bit of fun for a charity event. But I think I’m more disappointed by the fact that it wasn’t all that – you know, funny.
Out of interest – what are the more pro-Moffat-DW-than-I people saying about it?
This post is public because I'm interested in what others beyond my f-list have to say. But I know this is a contentious issue, and if I feel I have to, I'll lock it.
I am in NO WAY attempting to trivialize the concerns I’ve seen expressed or to say that those are not valid opinions. I hope that anyone reading this will know that’s something I would never do. I try to understand differing opinions, not slag them off.
Okay. So my first impressions, as I wrote here, were more to do with the fact that practically everything in Space and Time is stuff we’ve seen before – either in Moffat’s own Time Crash (where Ten saved the day because he remembered watching himself (as Ten) when he was Five) or in earlier DW stories (the TARDIS materializing within the TARDIS had been done in The Time Monster (Three) and Logopolis (Four)) – AND that it was a very tongue-in-cheek nod to all those moans about the fact that Amy spent most of the last series wearing skirts that were barely long enough to cover her – er – modesty ;-)
I admit I did wince a few times – the stuff about the driving test was in really bad taste, I thought - but mostly I was sniggering at the fact that Moff had let his inner 12 year-old run free and was trotting out some of the most clichéd schoolboy/seaside postcard humour I’ve seen on telly for a while.
I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing; it seems to me, on the whole, that us Brits tend to be a bit more laid back about political correctness and “isms” than some other cultures – and again - I’m not slagging anyone off, just wondering aloud! I mean – *hangs head in shame* - we gave the world Benny Hill after all. A fact for which I feel compelled to apologise profoundly. Oddly, there was an early Carry On film on on Saturday afternoon, in which the humour is very much in the same vein, and I found myself wondering how they could get away with showing it these days. Okay, so I know that it was made in the 1960s - we’ve moved on since then.
Anyway. what I’ve been wondering is whether I’m dim, insensitive or just a bad feminist, because I’m prepared to dismiss it as – admittedly poor - “schoolboy humour” rather than deliberate sexism.
When I first saw the various debates here on LJ which talked about how Moffat’s views on women – ones that he’s not been shy of expressing in a number of interviews – are informing his writing, I was surprised because, as I said, I don’t tend to see things like this unless it’s either a) incredibly, glaringly obvious or b) pointed out to me afterwards.
(As another example. At the risk of opening up another can of worms about another “ism” – I was surprised to discover that the fact that Martha’s family were dressed in servants’ uniform at the end of S3 was widely thought to be racist.
I never saw that at all. My brain doesn’t go – “oh, they’re black so they have to wear servants’ uniforms”. It goes – “oh, they’re servants so they have to wear servants’ uniforms.”
They’d have been wearing them had they been White, Indian, Chinese, Hispanic or whatever, because the point was that the Jones family had been enslaved by the Master. But that’s by the by.)
It was while reading one of those discussions about Moffat that I read an old interview in which he made some spectacularly sexist comments, and I admit I was shocked. Not just at the views expressed, but that fact that he actually SAID THEM OUT LOUD!
For anyone who doesn’t know what I’m talking about, the comments are these ones (thanks to
kilodalton for reminding me of them).There’s this issue you’re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That’s the truth. We don’t, as little boys, play at being married – we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands.
And this –
Well, the world is vastly counted in favour of men at every level - except if you live in a civilised country and you’re sort of educated and middle-class, because then you’re almost certainly junior in your relationship and in a state of permanent, crippled apology. Your preferences are routinely mocked. There’s a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male.
source.
Sounds like a manifesto for Mysogynists-R-Us. And my response to that last quote is – if you’re going to spout crap like that, then I’m not at all surprised.
I don’t think I’m stupid or insensitive – so perhaps it’s to do with the fact that I grew up in the 70s when humour of the type we’re talking about was rife; and while I didn’t particularly like it, I’m used to it? I know that’s not an argument that paints me in a particularly flattering light either, but I can’t think of another reason as to why I’m not more worked up about this.
So yes, I can definitely see what people are talking about when they talk about Moffat being sexist, and I admit his attitude makes me uncomfortable. I mean, sure he’s created a sexy, feisty, independent, clever, kick-arse female character in River Song, but what is she if not the manifestation of what I’ve referred to before as Moffat’s ultimate fantasy – a feisty, sexy, clever woman who is most definitely NOT needy or hunting for a husband? She doesn’t want to tie the hero down because she’s not interested in domesticity herself.
As anyone who’s read my other witterings about DW knows, I’m not Moffat’s greatest fan. I admire his skill and I like his sense of humour (mostly), but I can’t quite bring myself to believe that he’s so bloody stupid and/or insensitive as to allow his personal, unflattering views on women to be seeping into his work. And this was only a six-minute charity thing, after all, probably a bit hastily thrown together.
Perhaps the problem is that I’m too naïve.
I can certainly see why there are people out there who are incensed by what was supposed to be a bit of fun for a charity event. But I think I’m more disappointed by the fact that it wasn’t all that – you know, funny.
Out of interest – what are the more pro-Moffat-DW-than-I people saying about it?
This post is public because I'm interested in what others beyond my f-list have to say. But I know this is a contentious issue, and if I feel I have to, I'll lock it.
no subject
Date: 2011-03-22 05:15 pm (UTC)Out of interest – what are the more pro-Moffat-DW-than-I people saying about it?
Well, about the first thing I wrote in reaction to it was "It's like he read the fic! <3"
I found it to be an enormously self-aware, self-referential little confection of meta-ness (in most everything it did, including the skirt stuff). Because what fan hasn't noticed the short skirt/glass floor issue? Or the related Amy floating in outer space where the Doctor can see straight up her nightie issue? And it seems like everybody and their mother has commented on it. And then half of those people went on to write fic that touched on it in some way. Now either Moff can go on politely pretending like this would never happen, or he can make a joke about it himself.
And I actually found Moff's handling of it to be a lot more tasteful than most of what I've seen from fans. A guy had a moment of distraction because he caught a glimpse up his wife's skirt. That's half-sweet. And the Doctor's immediate reaction was to get on Rory's case about it, not Amy's.
I'll give you that the skirt/floor joke together with the driving joke and the two Amy's flirting with each other all in less than ten minutes is probably pushing the bounds a bit. And, no, I don't think it's really the best thing Moff's ever written. But take each component separately, and I do find everything that happened to be very much in character. And within the broader context of the season as a whole, the full scope of who these characters are, and the way their relationships have been developed, I don't find any of it to be particularly disempowering or demeaning.
So at any rate, I'll say that I (and as far as I've seen, most of the pro-Moff camp) took it as a bit of in-joking between Moff and the fans. It's not the first time Moff's taken the sexual subtext of the show and addressed it head-on (most especially in that second "Meanwhile in the TARDIS" scene). I rather appreciate that he's willing to bring this stuff up to light and make the Doctor address it and maybe shake people up a bit over it. I find it a far more honest way of dealing with sexuality than to have all the characters shuffle their feet around bashfully and pretend like these things don't go through people's heads.
(Not coincidentally, none of what I said above would be worth a damn if I didn't think that in the fundamentals of equality and empowerment in relationships, Moff gets it absolutely right in a way I've rarely seen anywhere else. The very way the Doctor/River relationship is structured and set up makes it, I think, an extremely poetic, concretely-realized, scifi reflection of how strong relationships should work, theoretically. I wrote once here about them: "A marriage composed entirely of “yes”: two equals, unbound by any recognizable force of society or social expectation or dependency, returning freely to each other again and again and again through simple, affirming choice." I find any niggles I might have over short skirts to be extremely inconsequential in comparison to an ability to imagine that sort of fundamental balance and equality and mutual support and choice in relationships.)
no subject
Date: 2011-03-22 09:00 pm (UTC)For me, the self-referential nature of the thing was the best thing about it - and it's partly why I think I'm not so het up about the sexism issue. It was written for a different audience, potentially a more adult one and I think it gave SM the chance to make some jokes he'd never normally be able to make on the show and, as you say, to share an in-joke with the fans.