DW 6x07 - A Good Man Goes to War

[caz963]

So, revealed at last, River Song is -



- Amy and Rory's daughter, which seems to have been the option favoured by the majority of posters and commenters I've read over the past few weeks.

But Moff wasn't kidding yesterday when he tweeted "what are you REALLY asking?" - because really, knowing who River IS hasn't made all that much of a difference, has it? And if anything, as is becoming usual with Moff, the answer asks a helluvalot more questions than it does, in fact answer.

The Doctor's reaction to realising that he'd in fact got all flirty and kissyface with Pond minor was quite funny, but there still appears to be a lot more to come in their relationship. But given his very paternal attitude towards Amy, is he going to cool off to River now? I mean, now he knows that one thing I could see him starting to treat River like he treats Amy. But given that the implication is still that what we've seen of their relationship is far from all of it, and River's constant punctuation of her "now look what you've done" speech with the words "my love", it would still seem as though there's some sort of romantic relationship there - which could, of course, be with a future doctor. That was always my supposition until she and Eleven started getting very flirty this series.

Knowing WHO River is in the sense of who her parents are still doesn't tell us all that much about her though, does it? I'm sure there are lots more questions that will be asked in the coming months, but so far I've got these:

How does she come to know the Doctor's name?

If she was kidnapped with a view to using her as a weapon against the Doctor - how come she's fine and dandy now?

Where in her timeline does this episode fall? (I'm still not convinced about the opposite timelines thing)

Who is the "good man" she kills?

Is she the little girl in the spacesuit?

Is she the one who kills the Doctor in TIA?

If that was the Doctor's crib, how come her name was written on it?

If she's got Time Lord DNA, can she regenerate?

Was she the girl in the alley we saw regenerating at the end of DotM?

How can she appear at Amy's wedding when the universe was "rebooted" so in theory, she and Amy wouldn't have met?

And most importantly:

How is this revelation going to change the dynamics of the relationships between these four characters?

If baby Pond/Williams ends up reunited with her parents and living on 21st century Earth - how does she become River Song, 51st Century archaeologist and adventurer?

Also -

who is Eye-Patch Lady (EPL) working for, and how do they know that a baby conceived in the Time Vortex would be possessed of a degree of Timey-Wimeyness?

Where do the Headless Monks fit into all this? And why have the Clerics joined forces with them? Why do they all want to kill the Doctor?

And - we still don't really know how or why the Silence blew up the TARDIS and created the cracks in S5 - always assuming it was them, that is.

I'm also willing to bet that last week wasn't the last we're going to see of the gangers, either.

Questions aside, I thought this was a decent episode which was fairly straighforward (for once), although I do have to admit to thinking that one Silurian, one Sontaran, a couple of Judoon, a handful of pirates and one big blue con-man was a pretty small army to end up with given that Rory and the Doctor were supposedly running around the universe calling in favours. It was rather reminiscent of last year's TPO when we got to see characters from eariler stories again - not that I'm complaining about either, because those are bits I rather enjoyed. (We all cheered at the sight of Hugh Bonneville and his awesome beard!)

My eldest said she thought the Headless Monks that were "unmasked" looked like sacks of potatoes!

Rory was pretty damn awesome though. Yeah, it was cheesy, but where would DW be without a good dollop of gorgonzola now and again? - but I did like the "I'm gonna stand in front of stuff blowing up and look hard" sequence :-)

The baby-gloop thing was pretty yucky, if forseeable.

So basically, the Doctor has brought all this upon himself and his friends. We've got EPL talking about wars and warriors and the Doctor not recognising himself from her description which makes sense. After all, he didn't twig that the fearful being the Pandorica had been built to hold was himself, and Ten hated being called a warrior by the product of his own DNA. And then we've got River telling him that he's caused this through his arrogance and his ability to piss people off. Yeah, I can see that - the Doctor's always been an arrogant git ... it's just what has he done specifically to have brought about these particular events? I think with the Pandorica, it was more of a "you're the Doctor and you've defeated us through the ages one time too many", but I can't think that it's like that this time around. The baddies want a weapon to use against him - and it's a specific weapon, someone with Time Lord DNA who could only have been created by a certain set of circumstances.

Right - I'm tired and I need to sleep. I shall probably have more to say on this once I've thought about it some more.

Comments

[hockeyvaughnfan.livejournal.com]

I always love reading your take on DW, so often you mention stuff I'd missed and I go 'ohhhhhh!'

As for one of the o/s questions re River, I've always wondered from the start if the 'good man' she killed was the Doctor. I've no idea if that is the case or not, just a hunch from what was said then and since. Mind you I've not got a terribly good record with these things so it'll probably turn out to be someone else entirely! :)

Edit: As oops hit post too quickly there!

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Aw, thanks. Although I'm sure I miss loads, too, and this is just off the back of the one viewing (so far).

As to who is the "good man" - at first I thought it was probably the Doctor, but then I started to think that was too obvious. Given the events in TIA and they mystery surrounding who was in the spacesuit by the lake, it could still be - but if she was a little girl, she's been in prison for most of her life, which is a bit yuk. And, thinking about it now, in ToA/F&S, River was in the custody of the clerics and we've seen nothing so far to suggest that they're NOT the same clerics we just saw in the episode. In which case, you'd think they'd have been hailing River as a hero rather than locking her up.

I'm beginning to suspect that the good man might be Rory. All little girls think the world of their dads, don't they?

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I don't find him that Paternal with the Amy, but maybe I imagine out of "OMG THEY HAVE MET MUST SHIP THEM" style of thing.

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

Knowing WHO River is in the sense of who her parents are still doesn't tell us all that much about her though, does it?

Haven't seen the episode yet, but this caught my eye--perhaps we should be asking what River is, not just who.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I think that was the point of Moffat's tweet. He's done what he said he would and told us who she is - but that's really told us nothing. Which is what I sort of expected as soon as I read what he'd said!

[vervet-monkey.livejournal.com]

The Doctor's reaction to realising that he'd in fact got all flirty and kissyface with Pond minor was quite funny, but there still appears to be a lot more to come in their relationship

That bit did make me laugh. Along with the image of Amy and Rory being all 'Have her home by 10'. I also started with, 'so that's who River is', to by the time I got home 'Wait... that really doesn't tell us who River is'

How does she come to know the Doctor's name?

I think DWC said it was written on the side of the cot? Rather than Rivers name it was the Doctors, that wasn't what River was telling them to read at all. Although I'm not sure how that fits into Tens 'There's only one way I could', unless he means that she could only have read it off the side of the cot, and only done that if she were (part) Timelord?

Is she the little girl in the spacesuit?

I got the impression that they were saying she was, with the cut to the scenes of the spacesuit after the Doctor realised Melody was part Timelord.

How can she appear at Amy's wedding when the universe was "rebooted" so in theory, she and Amy wouldn't have met?

I hadn't even thought of that... Unless she is much later in her timeline? Because we are in rebooted universe now right? *head gets confused with timey-wimey-ness*

Rory was pretty damn awesome though.

Yeah he was!

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Ah, I must've missed that bit in the DWC. I'll probably watch the episode again later, but I think it was unclear and we shouldn't have to rely on "out-of-story" material to make clear such important points.

I'm completely with you on the fact that it doesn't tie in with Ten's reaction to River telling her his name. I'd started to think that the reason River knew the Doctor's name was because he'd told her himself, knowing that she'd need to know it at some point in her future.

I need to think about this some more because of the wibbly-wobblyness, but... if River is in the spacesuit and kills Eleven, how come grown-up River doesn't (appear to) remember doing it? And if he's the "good man" (and I'm not sure he is), it'd mean she's been in prison since she was a kid, which is a bit ikky, isn't it?

As for the rebooted universe... it's pretty unclear, but I tend to assume that the universe was rebooted to where it was before it crashed. I suppose the answer is probably "because River can travel through time"... but it's still pretty murky, because she turns up BEFORE Amy remembers the Doctor, at which point, he doesn't exist. So how does River know to go back in time to Amy's wedding to jog her memory by leaving her the book?

Also - if the Doctor had never existed, then who kept on saving Earth from Daleks, Cyberman, replicas of the Titanic and greedy giant spiders?

I'm going to stop now before I give myself a timey-wimey headache.

[vervet-monkey.livejournal.com]

With you on not having to rely on out-of-story stuff there really. But it is there at least.

knowing that she'd need to know it at some point in her future

Could be, but again doesn't fit with 'Only time I could'. I really hope we get an answer to that, given as it was such a big point for Ten.

it'd mean she's been in prison since she was a kid

Unless she doesn't kill him until much older.

Oh, or, thought... maybe she's not imprisoned as such, but has not yet been released? The Doctor never manages to save her and she remains imprisoned? (Theory that occurred to me as I'm writing so basis is fairly limited)

I think what this comment should really say is 'I don't know!'

[caz963.livejournal.com]

No, it doesn't fit. But then the fact that River HAS to lie (as topaz_eyes points out below) means that she can't disabuse Ten of whatever notion he has of the circumstances under which he thinks she could have found out his name.

Yeah, I'm expecting a handwave for that one.

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

if River is in the spacesuit and kills Eleven, how come grown-up River doesn't (appear to) remember doing it?

One of the first things River said in SitL is "I lie. I always lie." And she has to lie, for events to occur properly in her timeline relative to the Doctor. Meeting the Doctor backwards means that she and the Doctor are always fixed points to each other; essentially, River's whole life is one giant paradox.

And if he's the "good man" (and I'm not sure he is), it'd mean she's been in prison since she was a kid, which is a bit ikky, isn't it?

I think the Doctor is the "good man." Moffat's using Rory as a foil to make us doubt that. It's rather brilliant; we know Rory is a good man by his previous actions; Rory is a nurse/healer who is slowly becoming a warrior. We know the Doctor--another healer--is a good man by his previous actions; we know the Doctor was a warrior in his past, and will become more so in his future. The Sontaran nurse is another foil, showing that it can also go in the opposite direction.

River being in a prison since childhood doesn't surprise me a bit. It's icky for more than one reason.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

The "good man" thing is another example of the amount of second guessing we're all doing.
"It's the Doctor, of course"

- "but no, hang on a mo, that's too obvious."

"So perhaps it's Rory - aha! Moffat wants us all to think it's the Doctor, but he's devious like that, so it can't be him -"

"- yebbut that's obvious as well..."

Gah.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I think the question behind the question is how the Doctor would react to having another Time Lord/Lady in his world, and specifically in his TARDIS. River, it seems to me, has always been more than a lover, because she has authority over him. When she calls him out, he listens. It's hard to believe that the possibility of a baby being enhanced, not just human, if born in the TARDIS, is completely new to him. Arguably, he's been criminally irresponsible, because I'm damn sure that the TARDIS is capable of issuing a contraceptive force field if required.

It could go to some interesting places. The Doctor has been on his own and answerable to nobody for a very long time, and it isn't doing him any good. My big problem with the plot device of River healing him, however, is that the next step in her timeline (presumably) sees the two of them on a killing spree against the Silence, which both of them seemed to enjoy.

[felis-nocturna.livejournal.com]

the next step in her timeline (presumably) sees the two of them on a killing spree against the Silence, which both of them seemed to enjoy

This. Also, I distinctly remember that in the Library episodes, at the very end of her timeline, River is looking at Ten and states that he isn't the Doctor yet, wishing him to be this: Now my Doctor... I've seen whole armies turn and run away. And he'd just swagger off back to his TARDIS and open the doors with a snap of his fingers. If that's not a complete contradiction of what she said to him this time, I don't know.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Oddly, I had exactly the same thought this morning. She spent all that time in SitL/FotD swooning over how her Doctor was a total BAMF and yet here, she's telling him off.

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

Perhaps she tells him off now because she resents what she knows is coming next? From here on, we'll be watching River's childhood unfold, and from what we know, it won't be pretty.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this before posting a reply because it's one of those timey wimey things that I can never work out.

The River who tells him off is younger than the River who tells Ten that he's not finished and talks about how awesome HER Doctor is, so she's done a pretty big U-turn by the time she gets to the Library.

Also - I suspect we're to assume that the River we see in victorian dress on her birthday is an older River than the one we see at the end of the episode - mostly because the costuming is SO different, I'm assuming it was done to make that specific point.

BUT - if the River that turns up on Demons Run in a puff of sound-effect at the end of the episode is the one who is "at that point in her timeline" - how does she know to show up there at that time? Older River told Rory she couldn't go to help out (presumably because she had to wait until baby!Pond had gone to avoid melting the space-time continuum or something). Because (I think) we have to assume that the events that we live through with River are the "first time" those events happen to her.

That doesn't really address your comment, but it's something I had to get off my chest!

And also why I'm still not convinced about the whole always-meeting-backwards thing.

[develish1]

doesn't timey wimey stuff give you a head-ache? lol

Just thought I'd add to one of your points, the River we see at the prison has to be older than one who later turns up, because she knows that's the day the Doctor finds out who she is. The only way she can know that, is if she remembers being there.

How she knows when to turn up though I have no idea, unless she get's a message some other way, but I'm quitting now, before my head explodes, lol

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Another reason River knows she can't turn up when Rory asks her to help is because she knows the younger version of her is going do show up and that they shouldn't meet. (Although we've seen disregard for the Blinovitch Limitation Effect in TBB and ACC).

Either she knew when to turn up because of a message from the Doctor, her future self, or Amy perhaps ... or it's one of those plot points that's going to be handwaved because of the timey-wimey. /sarcasm.

[lemony69.livejournal.com]

"The River who tells him off is younger than the River who tells Ten that he's not finished and talks about how awesome HER Doctor is, so she's done a pretty big U-turn by the time she gets to the Library."

Yes, exactly. As far as we know River meets the Doctor in the library for the last time (and he meets her for the first time). So at this point, River should know ALL about their story because her story ends there. So it makes no sense for me that she gives him the whole armies-turn-and run-speech in the library, when she should know that exactly this kind of behaviour will be his downfall and she tells him off for it at an earlier point in her timeline. Jeez, this gives me a headache...

[caz963.livejournal.com]

*sniggers* at the idea of the TARDIS contraception field!

Thing is, it took him long enough to reach that conclusion, didn't it? Just like I was yelling at Ten that paper is made from trees, so books = forests! so I was doing pretty much the same here. And not only did it take him ages, he had to have plenty of help from the lesbian-alien-sword-wielding-victorian-detective, didn't he?

I might write another post later, because having thought about it, there's so much about the episode that just didn't work or make sense. The whole thing left me feeling distinctly underwhelmed, just like the S5 finale.

I'm still not convinced by the reverse timelines thing but I can't be bothered to give myself the headache that would inevitable ensue if I tried to work it out!

[lunalovelupin.livejournal.com]

It was a pretty straight forward episode (thankfully), but I'm still mystified that Jenny was only hinted at with a character of the same name or an actual possible regeneration. I've been waiting to see Jenny again since we know that she was alive when last we saw her. This also has some possibility to bring in some new and old faces of Time Lords long gone, ie the Master again...It seems that no matter how hard they try he must exist i opposite to the Doctor. I can't wait to see the ext season, the episodes just keep getting better even with the twists and turns!

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Heh - a Dogma icon. I love that film :-)

I have to say that I thought the use of the name Jenny was just Moffat being one almighty tease. We all know he was the one who suggested she didn't stay dead at the end of TDD, so the natural assumption is that it was because he wanted her to come back in some way.

But you never know with him...

[lemony69.livejournal.com]

The more I think about what we saw so far the more confused I get. Watching DW under SM made me paranoid. The puzzle and the mystery were nice at the beginning but now it's impossible for me to watch a episode without overthinking it and trying to find a deeper meaning in everything. For me it has become somewhat tiresome and a struggle.

I agree with what felis_nocturna said. Back in season 4 River was disappointed because Ten wasn't badass enough for her. Now she tells him off because he apparently turned into badass!Doctor. It doesn't make sense. I hope, that those things will make sense by the end of the series.

[caz963.livejournal.com]

The puzzle and the mystery were nice at the beginning but now it's impossible for me to watch a episode without overthinking it

*nods* ITA. And while some people really love that kind of thing, I don't always want to have to work quite so hard with my chosen forms of entertainment!

I hope, that those things will make sense by the end of the series.

See, this is one of those things that's really bugging me about this series and which bugged me about the last one. Episodes/stories should hold up and make sense on their own and not just when seen in retrospect - "Oh - I get it now, that makes sense because x,y,z" etc. And I'm not sure that they always do.

[lemony69.livejournal.com]

Yep, I don't want to watch a show thinking "wait, back in series 5 episode 4 Amy coughed twice, this has to mean something" ;)

[caz963.livejournal.com]

Yep. Or thinking - "wait: she sneezed twice there. What can that mean? *comes up with theory x 100*. Never mind. It'll all make sense in 12 weeks' time, god I love all this intricacy and mystery, it's so amazing and wonderfully crafted *fangasm*"

[lemony69.livejournal.com]

*snorts*

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