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caz963I've been AWOL from here for a while and didn't get around to posting my thoughts on , so I'm going to kill two birds with one stone and jot a few things down here.
On the whole, I thought it was a good episode - although I don't think it lived up to the hype.
The conceit whereby the Doctor was confined to the TARDIS was flimsy and contrived at best, and the idea that Rory wouldn't have told Amy to press the green button in the first place was pretty implausible. And if that wasn't bad enough - who ever presses the bottom button when there's a choice of two? Or the red one if there's a choice between red and green?
Small gripes, I know, but they're the sort of thing that stand out as being just plain daft!
On the plus side, kudos to Karen Gillan, who finally proved that she really can act. Her older version of Amy was understandably hardened and bitter - and I thought that the bit where she pulled out her old lipstick and contemplated putting it on for a second was very poignant. I'm glad that the "who does Amy really luuurve?" issue has been settled once and for all, although the "it's always been Rory" is just a little hard to believe given that this was the girl who tried to jump another bloke on the eve of her wedding. *shrugs*
For the second week running, there was no mention whatsoever of Melody and no evidence that either of her parents were giving her a second thought. I know some viewers don't find that a problem - but in last week's episode, we had a storyline concerning a young child who was terrified of being abandoned, and in this week, Amy has had thirty-six years in which to ponder the nature of her existence, and I find it hard to believe she'd never have thought of her lost child in all that time. Yet she never mentions Melody as being one of the causes of her hatred of the Doctor.
Arthur Darvill also did sterling work in this episode - especially in the scene at the end where he has to choose between the Amys. I thought when I watched it that that moment was probably the death-knell for Rory's time on the TARDIS - his disgust at the thought that he was becoming like the Doctor was palpable, and after all, he's never put the Doctor on a pedestal in the way that Amy has. He's always been aware of how dangerous the Doctor is and why and while it was obvious that there were never going to be two Amys on the TARDIS, this was one time when Rory, probably in his desperation, didn't see through the Doctor's bullshit.
The fact that older!Amy wasn't prepared to sacrifice herself for her younger self was a refreshing departure from the usual cliche. She'd lived those thirty-six, solitary years and wasn't prepared to let go of them, no matter how difficult they'd been.
As for the Doctor - Rory forgot rule number one. The Doctor lies. This episode didn't paint the Doctor in a flattering light, and I'm okay with that. Because he's our hero, it's easy to forget sometimes that he's NOT a hero and that he's done some pretty awful things in his time. He's always been a manipulative sod - moreso in some incarnations than others - and while he said that the choice of which Amy to save was Rory's, he'd made it as difficult as possible for Rory to choose to do anything other than what he did. That, actually, is why I'm not certain that Rory wasn't going to leave the TARDIS to be with the older!Amy when he began to unlock the door. Not because he loved one Amy more than the other, but because he knows that Amy loves travelling with the Doctor and being Rory, he always puts Amy's happiness before his own. I wonder if some of his disenchantment with the Doctor might have been in play there, too - by making a decision the Doctor wouldn't have been expecting him to make, Rory, in an odd way, asserts his independence.
And there were a couple of nice throwbacks by Tom McRae - on the evidence of this episode, it's a shame he hasn't written for DW since 2006.
I said after LKH that I was looking to the four standalone episodes between LKH and the series finale to regenerate my enthusiasm for Doctor Who, and I have to say that the three that have aired so far have been some of the most enjoyable episodes of S6.
The God Complex was creepy and claustrophobic, starting out as one thing and turning into another. Toby Whithouse is forever on my "good" list for penning School Reunion, and here again, he gets to show us something of the Doctor's darker side and to get under his skin, just a little. It's not that we were told anything we didn't already know - I suppose I just wasn't expecting it at this point in the series.
The "A" plot, of there being a room for everyone in the creepy hotel was suitably scary for the kids who already had cushions to hide behind at the ready! It was interesting that Rory didn't have a room - and that we didn't see what was in the Doctor's (room 11 - natch!). But given we could hear the tolling of the Cloister Bell, the TARDIS had to figure in it somehow. And unless he was seeing the death of his beloved ship - and we know, from Amy's Choice that he's the person who hates himself most in the universe, I suppose it must have been himself that he saw.
I almost squealed with delight at the sight of young Amelia again! That particular scene was brilliantly put together and wonderfully poignant as the Doctor realises it's time to let go. It was almost painful to hear him admit to his vanity and selfishness in this way (even though he admitted, in those mini-episodes on the S5 DVDs, that he takes companions with him so that he can see the universe afresh through their eyes); and the fact that he had to destroy Amy's faith in him to save her life in the hotel took on a wider significance as the audience realised that it wasn't just in order to save her life on that one occasion.
And it was good to see Amy reach the same conclusion.
It was also good to finally see some acknowledgement that Eleven is the "product" of what came before. It's often been difficult for me to see how Eleven grew from Ten, other than as a reaction against him - but I think that in this episode, Eleven was as close to Ten as I've ever seen him. His admission that he screws up his companions, the idea that they have too much faith in him - and that he actually likes it - are all things Ten knew but never admitted. So it's progress of sorts, I suppose.
I'll admit to wondering when the Doctor became an Estate Agent/Used Car Dealer (!) - for a few seconds - but on the whole that farewell scene was very nicely done, apart from the if you bump into my kid, tell her to visit me line! Now, I know I've moaned about the lack of acknowledgement of Melody's existence in the last two episodes, but that was hardly the way to do it, IMO.
But Moff seems to think that all that needed to be said about the baby plot was said by the end of LKH.
Is that the house in which Amy and Rory are settled when we see them at the start of the series? It's pretty clear, in TiA, that they haven't seen the Doctor for a while, which is explained if he's parted company with them at the end of TGC. It's the older!Doctor who summons them to witness his death - and they've been travelling with the younger one. But - and this is where my head starts to ache - doesn't that mean that, for Amy and Rory, this whole series has been one big time-loop or something?
And of course, that isn't the last we'll see of them, because surely they'll be back in the finale. According to recent reports, they're both on location for the Christmas episode, and I remember reading that KG has signed on for more episodes, although it's not clear how many.
Finally - and congratulations if you've waded through this far! - just to say that I'm looking forward to next week's episode very much. I've enjoyed all Gareth Roberts' episodes, and, some quibbles aside, The Lodger is one of my favourites from last year. Also, James Corden and Matt Smith have great chemistry together - and yay! Cybermen!
On the whole, I thought it was a good episode - although I don't think it lived up to the hype.
The conceit whereby the Doctor was confined to the TARDIS was flimsy and contrived at best, and the idea that Rory wouldn't have told Amy to press the green button in the first place was pretty implausible. And if that wasn't bad enough - who ever presses the bottom button when there's a choice of two? Or the red one if there's a choice between red and green?
Small gripes, I know, but they're the sort of thing that stand out as being just plain daft!
On the plus side, kudos to Karen Gillan, who finally proved that she really can act. Her older version of Amy was understandably hardened and bitter - and I thought that the bit where she pulled out her old lipstick and contemplated putting it on for a second was very poignant. I'm glad that the "who does Amy really luuurve?" issue has been settled once and for all, although the "it's always been Rory" is just a little hard to believe given that this was the girl who tried to jump another bloke on the eve of her wedding. *shrugs*
For the second week running, there was no mention whatsoever of Melody and no evidence that either of her parents were giving her a second thought. I know some viewers don't find that a problem - but in last week's episode, we had a storyline concerning a young child who was terrified of being abandoned, and in this week, Amy has had thirty-six years in which to ponder the nature of her existence, and I find it hard to believe she'd never have thought of her lost child in all that time. Yet she never mentions Melody as being one of the causes of her hatred of the Doctor.
Arthur Darvill also did sterling work in this episode - especially in the scene at the end where he has to choose between the Amys. I thought when I watched it that that moment was probably the death-knell for Rory's time on the TARDIS - his disgust at the thought that he was becoming like the Doctor was palpable, and after all, he's never put the Doctor on a pedestal in the way that Amy has. He's always been aware of how dangerous the Doctor is and why and while it was obvious that there were never going to be two Amys on the TARDIS, this was one time when Rory, probably in his desperation, didn't see through the Doctor's bullshit.
The fact that older!Amy wasn't prepared to sacrifice herself for her younger self was a refreshing departure from the usual cliche. She'd lived those thirty-six, solitary years and wasn't prepared to let go of them, no matter how difficult they'd been.
As for the Doctor - Rory forgot rule number one. The Doctor lies. This episode didn't paint the Doctor in a flattering light, and I'm okay with that. Because he's our hero, it's easy to forget sometimes that he's NOT a hero and that he's done some pretty awful things in his time. He's always been a manipulative sod - moreso in some incarnations than others - and while he said that the choice of which Amy to save was Rory's, he'd made it as difficult as possible for Rory to choose to do anything other than what he did. That, actually, is why I'm not certain that Rory wasn't going to leave the TARDIS to be with the older!Amy when he began to unlock the door. Not because he loved one Amy more than the other, but because he knows that Amy loves travelling with the Doctor and being Rory, he always puts Amy's happiness before his own. I wonder if some of his disenchantment with the Doctor might have been in play there, too - by making a decision the Doctor wouldn't have been expecting him to make, Rory, in an odd way, asserts his independence.
And there were a couple of nice throwbacks by Tom McRae - on the evidence of this episode, it's a shame he hasn't written for DW since 2006.
I said after LKH that I was looking to the four standalone episodes between LKH and the series finale to regenerate my enthusiasm for Doctor Who, and I have to say that the three that have aired so far have been some of the most enjoyable episodes of S6.
The God Complex was creepy and claustrophobic, starting out as one thing and turning into another. Toby Whithouse is forever on my "good" list for penning School Reunion, and here again, he gets to show us something of the Doctor's darker side and to get under his skin, just a little. It's not that we were told anything we didn't already know - I suppose I just wasn't expecting it at this point in the series.
The "A" plot, of there being a room for everyone in the creepy hotel was suitably scary for the kids who already had cushions to hide behind at the ready! It was interesting that Rory didn't have a room - and that we didn't see what was in the Doctor's (room 11 - natch!). But given we could hear the tolling of the Cloister Bell, the TARDIS had to figure in it somehow. And unless he was seeing the death of his beloved ship - and we know, from Amy's Choice that he's the person who hates himself most in the universe, I suppose it must have been himself that he saw.
I almost squealed with delight at the sight of young Amelia again! That particular scene was brilliantly put together and wonderfully poignant as the Doctor realises it's time to let go. It was almost painful to hear him admit to his vanity and selfishness in this way (even though he admitted, in those mini-episodes on the S5 DVDs, that he takes companions with him so that he can see the universe afresh through their eyes); and the fact that he had to destroy Amy's faith in him to save her life in the hotel took on a wider significance as the audience realised that it wasn't just in order to save her life on that one occasion.
And it was good to see Amy reach the same conclusion.
It was also good to finally see some acknowledgement that Eleven is the "product" of what came before. It's often been difficult for me to see how Eleven grew from Ten, other than as a reaction against him - but I think that in this episode, Eleven was as close to Ten as I've ever seen him. His admission that he screws up his companions, the idea that they have too much faith in him - and that he actually likes it - are all things Ten knew but never admitted. So it's progress of sorts, I suppose.
I'll admit to wondering when the Doctor became an Estate Agent/Used Car Dealer (!) - for a few seconds - but on the whole that farewell scene was very nicely done, apart from the if you bump into my kid, tell her to visit me line! Now, I know I've moaned about the lack of acknowledgement of Melody's existence in the last two episodes, but that was hardly the way to do it, IMO.
But Moff seems to think that all that needed to be said about the baby plot was said by the end of LKH.
Is that the house in which Amy and Rory are settled when we see them at the start of the series? It's pretty clear, in TiA, that they haven't seen the Doctor for a while, which is explained if he's parted company with them at the end of TGC. It's the older!Doctor who summons them to witness his death - and they've been travelling with the younger one. But - and this is where my head starts to ache - doesn't that mean that, for Amy and Rory, this whole series has been one big time-loop or something?
And of course, that isn't the last we'll see of them, because surely they'll be back in the finale. According to recent reports, they're both on location for the Christmas episode, and I remember reading that KG has signed on for more episodes, although it's not clear how many.
Finally - and congratulations if you've waded through this far! - just to say that I'm looking forward to next week's episode very much. I've enjoyed all Gareth Roberts' episodes, and, some quibbles aside, The Lodger is one of my favourites from last year. Also, James Corden and Matt Smith have great chemistry together - and yay! Cybermen!
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no subject
Date: 2011-09-19 07:48 am (UTC)I do! I'm finding it such a problem that it's starting to spoil my enjoyment of the series. The fact that baby Melody grows into River Song doesn't make what happened to her OK, but the fact that Rory and Amy seem to think it does just boggles my mind.
in last week's episode, we had a storyline concerning a young child who was terrified of being abandoned,
Yes, I just don't get it. If the Doctor hares across the galaxy to save this child why didn't he do it for Melody. I'm sure there's some deeply clever timey wimey reason but at the moment it's eluding me.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-19 10:56 pm (UTC)- it was so traumatic that they can't talk about it
- they know she grows up into River and that she's alright so they don't have to worry any more
- they grew up with her (as Mels) so they did get to "raise" her
- Amy didn't know she was pregnant and didn't have time to adjust to the idea of parentood
- Amy and Rory didn't have time to adjust to being parents so they don't really miss it
and various other - frankly - stupid excuses.
SM clearly didn't think through the implications as he was too preoccupied with his masterful plotting around River.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-20 06:16 pm (UTC)During the last episode I came to the conclusion that there must be some timey-wimey stuff going on and that the last few episodes happened BEFORE they lost the baby. Because otherwise I couldn't explain the total lack of reaction. Amy even said that the Doctor let her down only once, when he didn't came back to her when she was a child. Well, I would imagine, that failing to bring her baby back would also count as a bit of a let down. And then Amy made the remark about telling her daughter to visit her, and my soap bubble burst when I realised that nothing timey-wimey was going on.
I don't get why people excuse it or try to candy-coat it.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-20 11:04 pm (UTC)Nor do I. And I've seen such a lot of people jumping through various hoops trying to justify it - because for many of them, Moffat can do no wrong.
Thing is - how do you explain something so fundamental as the link between a parent and child? Regardless of the fact that Amy didn't know she was pregnant, she still gave birth, her body was full of the necessary hormones and she got to spend at least a small amount of time with her child. Until I became a parent, I had no idea just how strongly I would feel about my children and how instantaneous and simply HUGE that feeling would be.
I'm sure it's a very personal thing - but I'm also sure that the majority of parents experience the same.
That remark of Amy's was too little, too late.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-19 02:32 pm (UTC)But Moff seems to think that all that needed to be said about the baby plot was said by the end of LKH.
I've been discussing this elsewhere, and really, Moff did not think through any implications of the whole baby storyline. He was simply too enamored of it to care what fridging Amy or denying her a chance at parenthood would look like. TGWW would have been a perfect episode to comment on them in context of Mature!Amy's loss of faith in the Doctor. But nope, nada. OTOH, emotions like those are messy, and I can't help but notice Moffat didn't write TGWW, or TGC. /catty
And Karen Gillan acted her socks off! TGWW was Karen's tour de force.
Is that the house in which Amy and Rory are settled when we see them at the start of the series?
No. The house in TIA had a white door. I hope they don't time-loop Amy and Rory though.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-19 10:51 pm (UTC)*nods*. But let's face it - he's the guy who thinks that "Oooh - here's a hole. Let's go down it and see what happens" is a good idea for a story! *g*
I assume that all the non-Moff eps are written to some sort of specification, even if it's just a line. I remember reading that TRF/TAP were that way, and so was TGC, I believe. But, as I also understand, Moff doesn't do nearly the amount of rewrites that RTD did, so the standalones seem to have even LESS cohesion than they did back in Rusty's day. It's just handy that we've had writers like Gatiss, McRae and Whithouse these past weeks, all of whom worked on the show previously, and who have been able to bring us rather more than just a "monster of the week" episode.
SM absolutely can't have thought through the implications of the pregnancy storyline. I said at the outset that it was a spectacularly bad idea for DW because once you've introduced a baby, you have only two options if you want to attempt to achieve anything that approaches a realistic reaction. One - the companions have to leave the TARDIS as running around time and space and into all sorts of danger isn't exactly the best environment in which to raise a child or Two - bye-bye baby. And if you opt for the latter, you'd better be willing to deal with the emotional fallout.
I keep seeing people insisting that the reason that the Ponds aren't more concerned about their missing daughter is because the whole thing has been so traumatic that they're not talking about it, or because they hardly had time to adjust to the idea that they were parents; that they know that she turns out to be River and so they don't have to worry; Amy didn't know she was pregnant for very long and so didn't really get used to the prospect of parenthood, etc. etc.
What utter bollocks. We're supposed to think that the Ponds are nice people. Nice people would love their baby, regardless of whether she was expected or not. And loving your child isn't exactly a "rational" reaction, is it? It just... happens.
It's all been just a way of furthering the River plot - and for me, it's been the last nail in the coffin of my interest in her. I like River and enjoyed her interactions with the Doctor, but I'm so over wanting to know who she is to him that it'll be a relief when it's all in the open and the series is over :(
But I'm still looking forward to seeing Craig again!
no subject
Date: 2011-09-21 06:53 am (UTC)RTD gave us the Doctor/Rose love story which was, at least in his eyes and for many fans an epic, dramatic love story. And it seems to me that SM wants to top this romance at all costs with something more special, more epic, more awesome = River Song. Meh!
no subject
Date: 2011-09-19 11:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-19 11:42 pm (UTC)I, too, am sort of ignoring the issue, insofar as I've decided to concentrate on the standalones rather than on the overarcing plot. I like River, but I don't really care any more about who she is, and whether she's married to the Doctor, or whether she kills him... I know that DW isn't the show one watches when one wants realism - but I think that what any good sci-fi show does is to show us that human reactions are the same, regardless of where we are in time or space. That's one of the ways in which we are (sometimes) able to see past a creaky or hole-filled plot, because we care about the people and can perhaps identify with them. But Amy's and Rory's reaction makes no sense whatsoever, regardless of whether or not they knew they were going to be parents, etc. etc.
I really think it's been a huge mistake.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-20 12:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-20 12:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-20 01:31 am (UTC)I understand that River is their dauther (a theory I never really liked and was really annoyed by when it was made cannon) and that most parents would freak out and go hunting her down...but this was in no way a normal pregnancy.
Amy didn't even know she was pregnant for most of the season because she'd been put into the Flesh duplicate of herself. She only found out she'd been pregnant when she woke up in the middle of labor, so I can understand her nor forming that mother child bond. Personally, I thought it was weird that Amy and Rory were all "aww. look at the cute baby" (despite those scenes being adorable) when the whole pregnancy seemed like some huge violation by the villians who made Amy basicly an Incubator for their Doctor-killing Assasin.
I was really annoyed that none of the writers seemed to realized this would be incredibly traumatic for Amy.
But back to the point: So they only had a short amount of time with their baby, after a very traumatic way of finding out they had a baby, then she was kidnapped, then it turned out their friend had been their child this whole time (well, they found this out twice), then the Doctor left them behind, then they found out their best friend growing up had been their child this whole time....I'm not sure if Amy and Rory know how to deal with this situation.
Also, there is the fact that River is a complicated space time event by this point. I don't think it's possible for her to be given back to Amy and Rory, considering what an impact her life has caused, not just for Team TARDIS but for everyone she knew/interacted with/killed/saved, etc. I think Rory and Amy understood time travel enough by know that River's life can't really be changed by now; it might be enough that they got to know her as a friend and can be proud of all the awesome things she accomplished in her life.
But it could have been dealt with better. They could have written in scenes in LKH with Amy, Rory, and the Doctor discussing the situation, and them coming to terms (on screen) about the situation. Personally, I'm a bit disapointed that there was no confrontation between Amy and Rory and River over River's fate: Rory and Amy could argue that they want to raise their daughter while River argues that even though her life was completely fucked up that she likes the person she became and that she deserves to have her own life (sort of like Future!Amy's argument against helping Present!Amy).
Though overall I like S6 Part 2 better than Part 1. I also kind of like S6's whole "The Doctor can be really dangerous" theme as well; I love it when the show explores the Doctor's darker aspects.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-20 10:58 pm (UTC)Exactly. Although I have to disagree with you about Amy not being able to form a bond with her baby. IMO, that bond just happens - and of course, I can only speak as one who was cognisant of pregnancy and prepared for the arrival of a baby, but I still can't see how that makes much of a difference. She gave birth, held her baby and was able to spend at least some time with her in the first month of her life. And I'm afraid that the argument that Amy and Rory know about the laws of time, or that they got to grow up with Mels doesn't hold water with me either. Losing your child would surely be one of the most traumatic things anyone could ever experience - and I know that I, personally, wouldn't be capable of thinking as rationally as that if one of my kids had been stolen away!
This is what I mean when I say that Moff didn't give this plot twist adequate consideration. I don't know if he intended River to be Amy's daughter right back when he wrote her first appearance in SitL - but whatever the case, he needed to shoe-horn that into the story somehow, and in doing so, he's removed any sense of emotional continuity from the show. (Not that I think it had a lot to start with, but anyway.)
I know this is a fantasy show, and that it's not intended to be realistic in the sense that we get to see aliens and monsters and other planets and other staples of sci-fi. But the thing that makes good sci-fi work is that there's a strong emotional resonance for the audience. One of my favourite shows, Babylon 5 did that incredibly well - the characters might have been stuck in a rotating "tin can" in space in the 24th century, but they still behaved in ways that were recognisable. They still exhibited greed, jealousy, love, humour, whether human or alien.
But for a young couple to lose their baby and appear to be completely okay about it?
That has to be quite the most unrealistic thing I've ever seen in DW!